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DZorn00
01-08-2008, 12:33
I was looking at this and thought that might not be a bad idea. I wanted to know what some of you Vetran Divers thought of the Air trim and also what some of the PRO's and Con's of having a totally integrated system might be. I can think of a few but I am not that experienced and wanted to hear from others. Thanks

CODMAN
01-08-2008, 13:24
Zorn, don't you know you'll die if you use anything else than a BP/W?:smiley11:

:smilie39:(sorry guys, I couldn't help it!!!!):smilie39:

Zorn, I'm by no means a veteran, but do use a lot of Mares products. The HUB is a fully integrated system that never really cought on in America (and not even in europe from what I know). I don't think it is a bad product (most Mares gear is very well made), but it ruffled some feathers by 1- being very different from the current standard equipment and 2- not being very flexible in options (you basically can't change much about it or swap out individual parts; It comes as it is, love it or hate it). Anyways, there are some advantages to such a system. Certainly some disadvantages (like not being able to choose individual parts). Getting service done on one would probably be hard...:smiley13:

As far as the airtrim goes, that I can talk about since I have it on my Morphos pro BCD. I simply love it! It works great, is always in the same place, permits very precise control of buoyancy, dumps air very quickly and in almost any position. I simply love it and wouldn't change for anything. Once again, it's sometimes a love-it or hate-it kind of thing and many people are affraid of new technology. Personally, I chose to embrace it and am very happy.:smiley20: One thing though, before a dive with a new buddy, I always make sure to explain how the inflator works just in case...

Cheers!:smiley20:


I was looking at this and thought that might not be a bad idea. I wanted to know what some of you Vetran Divers thought of the Air trim and also what some of the PRO's and Con's of having a totally integrated system might be. I can think of a few but I am not that experienced and wanted to hear from others. Thanks

mike_s
01-08-2008, 13:33
I was looking at this and thought that might not be a bad idea. I wanted to know what some of you Vetran Divers thought of the Air trim and also what some of the PRO's and Con's of having a totally integrated system might be. I can think of a few but I am not that experienced and wanted to hear from others. Thanks


while it might seem like a neat idea being integrated, who wants to be stuck using those regualtors? You should be able to choose what you like.

gear maintenance would be a pain in the butt also.

Check Ebay or other sources and you'll find this item cheap. It was a flop in sales. I think Divers Direct had them on sale for $199 in 2006 at their July tent sale.

Grin
01-08-2008, 15:11
A guy I dive with had one a few years back. I remember a O ring popping in the hub part of it once. Havn't heard any good things about them either. That guy bought a Zeagle Stilletto last year.

Damselfish
01-08-2008, 17:01
The Airtrim always sounded kind of nice to me but the Hub idea, not so much. But I have used neither so I really shouldn't talk. ;) However, the fact that you can get them cheap now should tell you something.

There are many bits of gear in scuba that sound like good ideas until you try them and then they don't anymore. (Most of us have bought a few.) My sense is the HUB falls into this category.

abcitydiver
01-09-2008, 03:31
Hi Zorn-
Ive used mostly regular inflator bcs....but when I got in water with the airtrim..that was it, I was hooked.
As a relatively new diver.....getting control of boyance is work..and practice, and likely the same amount of practice with a corrogated hose as with the airtrim....
However, I can dump air more easily from any and all positions with the AT, which makes attaining boyancy a wee bit easier.
Think about how you will set up your entire rig....close your eyes and visualize, because how all the pieces integrate actually has some bearing on the AT working well for you.
For instance, will you have a console, or wear your computer on your wrist..which wrist? Which side will you route what hoses.
What tasks do you tend to do.."all at the same time"
Now, your left hand will mostly be perched at your left hip with the Mares AT.....the newer you are to diving, the more adjusting of your boyancy, at least initially. So what else do you want that hand to be doing?
Now, if you werent using the AT, your hand would be grasping at the inflator hose, which would likely be dangling...or raised high above your head. ...
Will you have a computer on that wrist?..
I could type forever, but you likely get my point.
For me, it was a no brainer...it all works together, i get one less hose dangling around, I never have to reposition, strain or reach to dump air.
I LOVE MY AT. (dragon)
As for the HUB, I too thought long and hard about it when I was first researching equipment.
The thought being that wow, this was innovative (which it was), cool and cutting edge. But the more I thought about it, there were other regs that I preferred (not that the Mares isnt a good reg), but mostly...one malfunctioning part, and my whole system was down...quite the bummer when traveling.
That said, there are some AMAZING deals to be had on the older hubs, and you would be hard pressed to put together such a good complete outfit for some of the prices that are out there.
Good luck with your descission!! Hope I've helped a bit, in my own befuddling way :-)

CODMAN
01-09-2008, 07:21
I agree completely with your views on the Airtrim. I won't go back to corrugated hoses unless I have to (like if I ever Mares drops the airtrim line or I take up Tech diving).

Cheers!:smiley20:


Hi Zorn-
Ive used mostly regular inflator bcs....but when I got in water with the airtrim..that was it, I was hooked.
As a relatively new diver.....getting control of boyance is work..and practice, and likely the same amount of practice with a corrogated hose as with the airtrim....
However, I can dump air more easily from any and all positions with the AT, which makes attaining boyancy a wee bit easier.
Think about how you will set up your entire rig....close your eyes and visualize, because how all the pieces integrate actually has some bearing on the AT working well for you.
For instance, will you have a console, or wear your computer on your wrist..which wrist? Which side will you route what hoses.
What tasks do you tend to do.."all at the same time"
Now, your left hand will mostly be perched at your left hip with the Mares AT.....the newer you are to diving, the more adjusting of your boyancy, at least initially. So what else do you want that hand to be doing?
Now, if you werent using the AT, your hand would be grasping at the inflator hose, which would likely be dangling...or raised high above your head. ...
Will you have a computer on that wrist?..
I could type forever, but you likely get my point.
For me, it was a no brainer...it all works together, i get one less hose dangling around, I never have to reposition, strain or reach to dump air.
I LOVE MY AT. (dragon)
As for the HUB, I too thought long and hard about it when I was first researching equipment.
The thought being that wow, this was innovative (which it was), cool and cutting edge. But the more I thought about it, there were other regs that I preferred (not that the Mares isnt a good reg), but mostly...one malfunctioning part, and my whole system was down...quite the bummer when traveling.
That said, there are some AMAZING deals to be had on the older hubs, and you would be hard pressed to put together such a good complete outfit for some of the prices that are out there.
Good luck with your descission!! Hope I've helped a bit, in my own befuddling way :-)

DZorn00
01-10-2008, 06:34
Thank you everyone. I would love to try out the air trim because I do have trouble with bouyancy being so new to the scene. It would be great not having to look for my hose everytime I need to dump or add air.
The integrated part was the scary part for me, it sounded really neat but the thought of having problems and not knowing if it would take out the whole BC was frightening. Thanks for letting me in on your secrets everyone.

:smiley20:

CODMAN
01-10-2008, 08:00
Zorn, i'm sure you'll love the airtrim. Luckily, mares has several BCDs that have it (so you don't necessarily need to go with the HUB), The Dragon and the Vector 1000 I believe are two current models with the airtrim option.

I know what you mean by "having to look for the hose"... No more with the airtrim....

The only down side I've found so far is you can't (or if you can it would be difficult) fill a Signal Marker Buoy from the airtrim dump valves, as you can from a corrugated hose. But hey, there are other ways of doing that...

Great advance if you ask me!:smiley20:



Thank you everyone. I would love to try out the air trim because I do have trouble with bouyancy being so new to the scene. It would be great not having to look for my hose everytime I need to dump or add air.
The integrated part was the scary part for me, it sounded really neat but the thought of having problems and not knowing if it would take out the whole BC was frightening. Thanks for letting me in on your secrets everyone.

:smiley20:

MSilvia
01-10-2008, 13:01
I wouldn't want a HUB if you offered to give it to me for free. The single biggest reason for that is that it isn't modular at all... it isn't a set of components, it's an all-or-nothing system. If (for example) you have a regulator problem, you have to send in your whole kit for repair, and you don't have the option of just diving with a rental reg until it's fixed. ANY failure with a HUB means ALL of your integrated gear is out of service. I fail to see how that's a desirable feature.

There are a number of other significant reasons I wouldn't want one too. Some examples include the difficulty of inspecting concealed hoses, the way the backup reg is secured, and the fact that I don't care for the AirTrim system. Aside from that stuff, the resale value tends to be really low on HUBs, as there isn't much demand for them that I've seen. If you get one and then decide that wasn't the best choice, you'll feel it in the wallet a lot more than you would if you got a BC that retained it's value.

As for the AirTrim system and your difficulty with buoyancy, consider this: Most divers have trouble with buoyancy when they're new, and they get better at it by practicing. If you get a system that doesn't give you the ability to practice and master fundamental skills, how quickly do you think you'll become a proficient diver?

The inflator hose should always be in the same spot, and there are easy ways to keep it from moving. With very little practice, it isn't something you should have to look for.

CODMAN
01-11-2008, 07:23
M, I agree with many of your points, but definetly not with this one...


If you get a system that doesn't give you the ability to practice and master fundamental skills, how quickly do you think you'll become a proficient diver?

That is not at all true. If you have an airtrim system, you'll simply be learning and practicing the fundamental skills WITH YOUR AIRTRIM! The fundamental skill of buoyancy control is not "Buoyancy control with a corrugated hose"... It's just "Buoyancy control", no matter what device your BCD uses...:smiley29:

Airtrim is not for everybody (that's a personal choice). But for those who like it, it is great! The system has been around for a while and has proven to be reliable. And personally, I find it functions better than regular BCDs (but that's just my oppinion).

I agree that the lack of modularity of the HUB system and the difficulty for hose inspection are major inconveniences. And I honnestly wouldn't buy one either.:smilie40: But if someone gave me one...:smiley2: Yeah, I'd give it a try!!!!

To each his/her own!!!!:smiley20:

MSilvia
01-11-2008, 11:44
If you have an airtrim system, you'll simply be learning and practicing the fundamental skills WITH YOUR AIRTRIM! The fundamental skill of buoyancy control is not "Buoyancy control with a corrugated hose"... It's just "Buoyancy control", no matter what device your BCD uses...:smiley29:
I see where you're coming from CODMAN, but I definately consider "Buoyancy control with a corrugated hose" a fundamental skill. IMO, proficiency with 'standard' gear is important.

CODMAN
01-11-2008, 13:08
If you have an airtrim system, you'll simply be learning and practicing the fundamental skills WITH YOUR AIRTRIM! The fundamental skill of buoyancy control is not "Buoyancy control with a corrugated hose"... It's just "Buoyancy control", no matter what device your BCD uses...:smiley29:
I see where you're coming from CODMAN, but I definately consider "Buoyancy control with a corrugated hose" a fundamental skill. IMO, proficiency with 'standard' gear is important.

Well, I guess it is good to at least have tried the different systems to know how they work (so you can adapt to either system as needed). I have that advantage as I learned diving with the old corrugated hose. But honnestly, the airtrim works really well for buoyancy control. I've improved considerably my technique while using this system and I'm sure I'll continue getting better the more I dive. Obviously, the experience is what has made my buoyancy better, but in all honnesty, I do believe the airtrim gives me slightly better control for fine tuning...

But hey, the corrugated hose will work fine too! So to each their own preference!:smiley20:

medic001918
01-11-2008, 13:21
Just another thought on Bouyancy and the talk of using the corugated hose to control it...that hose is not your only dump on most rigs. I know my BP/W has a rear dump on it and I use that dump more frequently than I do the inflator when it comes to getting rid of gas. I can get rid of gas while in trim or while verticle by choosing the proper dump to use. As far as inflation goes, I've never had my hose get away from me and become a hinderance. Many people get tunnel vision when thinking about the inflator as their main dump.

That being said, I have dove with the Mare AT since I used to have a Mares Morphos Pro. It was comfortable, but I found a huge improvement to my diving when I changed to the BP/W set up. It doesn't work for everyone, but it was a good thing for me.

Shane

terrillja
01-11-2008, 18:02
The inflator hose should always be in the same spot, and there are easy ways to keep it from moving. With very little practice, it isn't something you should have to look for.

I'm going to have to agree w/ msilvia, and say as I have posted in a few threads, rescue is taught assuming a corrugated hose, which can be controlled from behind the diver, where the rescuer is safer. To control the airtrim, you have to be next to the diver, where a panicked diver could certainly cause you serious harm.

I'd try to lock the tank and provide bouyancy in a rescue, but if that doesn't calm a panicked diver down, the only way to help is to inflate the BC and let them calm down on their own. If you are diving airtrim and I can't easily get at your inflator while keeping myself safe, I'm going to leave you there until you tire out. SORRY!

CODMAN
01-14-2008, 07:44
That is a good point you bring up. I was wondering if you've ever tried practicing this on an airtrim? I haven't yet, but will certainly soon since I'm going to be doing my rescue diver course in about a month. As I said I haven't tried it yet, but honnestly, I think you would be able to reach the airtrim console while cradeling the tank of a diver by reaching under the victims arm. The console is on the side and not that far (although a small diver might not be able to reach). But I can't confirm this yet; it will be good to check. But one thing that I can confirm would be less optimal for a rescue is that you would not be able to seize the inflation device and "KEEP control of it" as you inflate, as you would with a corrugated hose. The airtrim will stay within reach of the victim, even if you are able to reach it and inflate. At any rate, it's food for thought! :smilie40:

But this doesn't have anything to do with the functionality of the AT system or with the learning of buoyancy control. Good input though..:smiley20:





[quote=MSilvia;118207]
I'm going to have to agree w/ msilvia, and say as I have posted in a few threads, rescue is taught assuming a corrugated hose, which can be controlled from behind the diver, where the rescuer is safer. To control the airtrim, you have to be next to the diver, where a panicked diver could certainly cause you serious harm.

I'd try to lock the tank and provide bouyancy in a rescue, but if that doesn't calm a panicked diver down, the only way to help is to inflate the BC and let them calm down on their own. If you are diving airtrim and I can't easily get at your inflator while keeping myself safe, I'm going to leave you there until you tire out. SORRY!

Zenagirl
01-14-2008, 08:33
I'd try to lock the tank and provide bouyancy in a rescue, but if that doesn't calm a panicked diver down, the only way to help is to inflate the BC and let them calm down on their own. If you are diving airtrim and I can't easily get at your inflator while keeping myself safe, I'm going to leave you there until you tire out. SORRY!



I have to agree with Terrillja on this one. My concerns with the air trim system are that they are "non-standard", thus a lot of rescue divers won't have experience training with them, and the inflator is in a really bad position to be able to control in a rescue situation.

I remember in rescue training being able to get folks out of their BCs and how it took a few seconds to find the release latches on straps, etc. on ones I wasn't familiar with (and they are in standard locations). The idea of encountering a diver with an air trim system that I would have to "figure out" in the heat of an emergency makes me uncomfortable and frankly, I'd do exactly what Terrillja says....leave you to exhaust yourself until I can safely help you.

Now all that said, if I knew someone with an air trim system, particularly someone that I dove with sometimes, I'd hit the pool with that person and practice using it in a rescue. Still don't think I could safely control it with a panicked diver, so we might be back to waiting for exhaustion....

Puffer Fish
01-14-2008, 09:26
That is a good point you bring up. I was wondering if you've ever tried practicing this on an airtrim? I haven't yet, but will certainly soon since I'm going to be doing my rescue diver course in about a month. As I said I haven't tried it yet, but honnestly, I think you would be able to reach the airtrim console while cradeling the tank of a diver by reaching under the victims arm. The console is on the side and not that far (although a small diver might not be able to reach). But I can't confirm this yet; it will be good to check. But one thing that I can confirm would be less optimal for a rescue is that you would not be able to seize the inflation device and "KEEP control of it" as you inflate, as you would with a corrugated hose. The airtrim will stay within reach of the victim, even if you are able to reach it and inflate. At any rate, it's food for thought! :smilie40:

But this doesn't have anything to do with the functionality of the AT system or with the learning of buoyancy control. Good input though..:smiley20:





[quote=MSilvia;118207]
I'm going to have to agree w/ msilvia, and say as I have posted in a few threads, rescue is taught assuming a corrugated hose, which can be controlled from behind the diver, where the rescuer is safer. To control the airtrim, you have to be next to the diver, where a panicked diver could certainly cause you serious harm.

I'd try to lock the tank and provide bouyancy in a rescue, but if that doesn't calm a panicked diver down, the only way to help is to inflate the BC and let them calm down on their own. If you are diving airtrim and I can't easily get at your inflator while keeping myself safe, I'm going to leave you there until you tire out. SORRY!
Not actually a concern... you can inflate their vest without worry of anything happening to you... If you ever actually have a paniced diver, you will understand why... they are only looking up or to get out of the water. What goes on around their waist is not seen.

I know this from a lot more experience than I would like to have had.

A inflator hose, on the other hand, can be an issue, because you get to it normally over the top, and that can get you the grip of death....not fun.

Oh, but I don't like the HUB system for a bunch of other reasons.

Puffer Fish
01-14-2008, 09:28
I'd try to lock the tank and provide bouyancy in a rescue, but if that doesn't calm a panicked diver down, the only way to help is to inflate the BC and let them calm down on their own. If you are diving airtrim and I can't easily get at your inflator while keeping myself safe, I'm going to leave you there until you tire out. SORRY!



I have to agree with Terrillja on this one. My concerns with the air trim system are that they are "non-standard", thus a lot of rescue divers won't have experience training with them, and the inflator is in a really bad position to be able to control in a rescue situation.

I remember in rescue training being able to get folks out of their BCs and how it took a few seconds to find the release latches on straps, etc. on ones I wasn't familiar with (and they are in standard locations). The idea of encountering a diver with an air trim system that I would have to "figure out" in the heat of an emergency makes me uncomfortable and frankly, I'd do exactly what Terrillja says....leave you to exhaust yourself until I can safely help you.

Now all that said, if I knew someone with an air trim system, particularly someone that I dove with sometimes, I'd hit the pool with that person and practice using it in a rescue. Still don't think I could safely control it with a panicked diver, so we might be back to waiting for exhaustion....

Waiting for exhaustion usually will mean waiting for them to stop moving... would not recommend that course.

terrillja
01-14-2008, 10:01
Waiting for exhaustion usually will mean waiting for them to stop moving... would not recommend that course.
If I could not inflate their BC safely, then letting them tire themselves out a little is much better IMO, 1 tired diver is better than 2 dead divers any day. Having said that, I'm not going to leave someone until they are motionless, just let them tire themself out a bit so they can't hurt me.

My dad had been looking at the AT system, and for me to get at the inflator, I had to be next to him (we tried this in the store, and got some pretty strange looks). With his corrugated hose BC (Oceanic Probe LX), I can lock his tank in my legs and have complete control over his buoyancy.

Not saying that I don't think the AT system isn't interesting, but it takes some of the uniformity out of people's equiptment. Perhaps in 5 years everyone will dive the AT system and they will teach rescue differently, but for now I urge those that I dive with to stay with the corrugated hose, just in case I have to haul them out of the water sometime.

CODMAN
01-14-2008, 11:43
I understand what you mean. It isn't standard and will require more thought about how to procede (and we all know in a panic situation, we have plenty to think about).

But there's other, well accepted, gear out there that also causes this concern of non-uniformity. Double tanks comes to mind. How do you lock the tanks in that case to assure the victim doesn't turn to grab you?:smilie40::smilie40::smilie40: You can,t fit those between your legs... There is surely a way, if you keep your mind open and think.

And it doesn't mean you shouldn't use this equipment... And I would perfectly understand someone choosing to not attempt the rescue if they feel they cannot do it safely with an airtrim. It's their choice.

I don't think that uniformising everything is necessary or even desirable in diving (or other aspects of life).

Just my 0.02$








Waiting for exhaustion usually will mean waiting for them to stop moving... would not recommend that course.
If I could not inflate their BC safely, then letting them tire themselves out a little is much better IMO, 1 tired diver is better than 2 dead divers any day. Having said that, I'm not going to leave someone until they are motionless, just let them tire themself out a bit so they can't hurt me.

My dad had been looking at the AT system, and for me to get at the inflator, I had to be next to him (we tried this in the store, and got some pretty strange looks). With his corrugated hose BC (Oceanic Probe LX), I can lock his tank in my legs and have complete control over his buoyancy.

Not saying that I don't think the AT system isn't interesting, but it takes some of the uniformity out of people's equiptment. Perhaps in 5 years everyone will dive the AT system and they will teach rescue differently, but for now I urge those that I dive with to stay with the corrugated hose, just in case I have to haul them out of the water sometime.

sas
01-29-2008, 19:47
The airtrim inflator and deflator work well and should not be confusing to any intelligent diver. The inflate button is above, and slightly behind, the deflate button. It's really just an ergonomically shaped standard inflator that's tacked at your left side, in a place that is easy and intuitive to find. I've dove with a standard inflator and with an airtrim and I prefer the airtrim. If you've never used an airtrim (or any other piece of equipment), why criticise it?

Black-Gorrilla
01-29-2008, 21:44
used to own a limited morphos AT, and that thig was great, very simple, and did what it's supposed to do.... no complaints... i then was sucked into a dark part of diving that involves a backplate/wing... and have not looked back... if i were not diving a bp/w i would be in a Mares AT bc. (but not the HUB)

CODMAN
01-30-2008, 12:44
used to own a limited morphos AT, and that thig was great, very simple, and did what it's supposed to do.... no complaints... i then was sucked into a dark part of diving that involves a backplate/wing... and have not looked back... if i were not diving a bp/w i would be in a Mares AT bc. (but not the HUB)


Ah yes, the BP/W sect... :smilie39::smilie39: Just kidding obviously! I'll have to try one one of these days, at least to see just how different it really is...

Just for info, I did a pool dive the other night and checkes for accessibility of the Airtrim in a rescue situation... The airtrim was easily reachable from behind.:smiley20: Obviously, I have decent long arms, so it might be more of a problem for people with short arms. But in no way is the inflator unatainable...


Hmmm... Now if they invented a BP/W with an airtrim...:smilie39: I know, for many that would be heresy!!!!:smilie39::smilie39::smilie39:

St.jimmy
01-30-2008, 18:52
Anyone considering buying a HUB should read this:
http://diveweb.oneandoneis2.org/hub.htm
nuff said.

CODMAN
01-31-2008, 08:20
Anyone considering buying a HUB should read this:
http://diveweb.oneandoneis2.org/hub.htm
nuff said.

Well ST.Jim, that person is obviously biased (you can read it in the attitude). But the reading does bring up a lot of interesting points! Some of which were already brought up here.:smiley20: As you said, it would be good for anybody wanting to buy one to read that post!

I still maintain if somebody gave me one, I'd try it out... but I wouldn,t spend my $$ on one...

Cheers!:smiley20:

DZorn00
02-01-2008, 12:35
Anyone considering buying a HUB should read this:
http://diveweb.oneandoneis2.org/hub.htm
nuff said.

This is definately a biased article, however it does make a lot of sense. And the diagrams in it would most likely turn even the newest of divers off. With that many connecting points you are just asking for trouble.

Hopefully I will get me a Zeagle Ranger here pretty soon, was supposed to get one a few weeks ago but didn't work out yet....

dannybot
02-02-2008, 10:06
[QUOTE=CODMAN;117099]Zorn, don't you know you'll die if you use anything else than a BP/W?:smiley11:


Why that's totally ridiculous. But, you'll die if you dive with a HUB!

Not really, if you like it, get it. I like the idea of keeping things simple.