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Tom A
01-13-2008, 19:36
whats the difference between a bp an a regular bc iv been diving for yrs never heard of them till the board

Puffer Fish
01-13-2008, 20:38
whats the difference between a bp an a regular bc iv been diving for yrs never heard of them till the board
In it's simplest form... a back plate and wing is nothing more than a plate (aluminum, steel..) with holes and slots cut in it, with a bag attached (different sizes and shapes, depending on the need) and straps to hold it on.

They are all back inflate (as the wing is around the tank) and usually very simple in design.

The tech crowd likes them because they can be easily changed, are very simple and each part can be fixed or replaced if needed. They also have minimal failure points.

They are not without their issues...as they can be effected by tank weight and balance, and in some cases, you have to cut someone out of one, if there is an emergency.

I dive with the Zeagle version, and have the Ranger LTD bag attached to a Stainless steel plate. Mine has shoulder strap quick disconnects, integrated weights, your standard crotch strap,but it also has a quick disconnect and padded shoulder straps..I think it woul be fair to say that mine is the anti-BP/W.

They do take some getting used to, but most people that try them... love them...My regular BC gets used less and less these days.

RECDiver
01-13-2008, 21:02
Take a look at the ScubaToys website, DIR & Tech section, DIR - Tech Scuba Equipment (http://www.scubatoys.com/store/Scuba_Dir.asp). The third item is an example of a backplate and harness. The first item in that section is an example of a wing that would fit on the back of the backplate.

whse56
01-13-2008, 21:11
Some of the reasons people like them, you can alter the set up (1 or 2 tanks), replace the wing (more or less lift or if it leaks), harness system is pretty much infinetly adjustable, you can have weights integrated or use a seperate beltd,etc.

navyhmc
01-13-2008, 21:21
The other problem with a wing is that on the surface, it will have a tendancy to float you face down. A lot of rec BCD's are intended to keep your face out of the water when fully inflated.

Even so, I like BP/W setups.

MLenyo
01-14-2008, 01:56
...has shoulder strap quick disconnects, integrated weights, your standard crotch strap,but it also has a quick disconnect and padded shoulder straps..I think it woul be fair to say that mine is the anti-BP/W...

how do the quick disconnects work? and do you have to buy the straps assembled, or can you make quick disconnect straps?

abcitydiver
01-14-2008, 02:20
you've been diving a jacket style bc? and you havent died yet?
YeeGads!

MLenyo
01-14-2008, 02:47
you've been diving a jacket style bc? and you havent died yet?
YeeGads!

heheheheh!!

Puffer Fish
01-14-2008, 04:28
...has shoulder strap quick disconnects, integrated weights, your standard crotch strap,but it also has a quick disconnect and padded shoulder straps..I think it woul be fair to say that mine is the anti-BP/W...

how do the quick disconnects work? and do you have to buy the straps assembled, or can you make quick disconnect straps?
It is hard to see from the picture, but right above the metal ring on each side, is a large plastic disconnect

Backplate Options and Components Zeagle Systems - Scuba Diving Equipment Manufacturer (http://www.zeagle.com/index.php?submenu=HeavyDutyBC&src=gendocs&link=Backplate_options)

Note: Look at the delux harness.

The rings allow it the bend around your body, and the disconnect..... well it allows either side to be openned for getting into or out of the unit.

I rarely use this feature, but the same fitting on the crotch is a great additions.

mwhities
01-14-2008, 04:58
The other problem with a wing is that on the surface, it will have a tendancy to float you face down. A lot of rec BCD's are intended to keep your face out of the water when fully inflated.

Even so, I like BP/W setups.

I've never had that problem with my DSS rig; unless of course I have the wing fully inflated or close to it. What BP/W are you using?

I'm curious, has anyone experienced this with their BP/W? If so, can you tell me what makes? (Remember, you shouldn't have to have the wing fully inflated in order to be on the surface, if you are weighted properly.)

skdvr
01-14-2008, 06:49
The other problem with a wing is that on the surface, it will have a tendancy to float you face down. A lot of rec BCD's are intended to keep your face out of the water when fully inflated.

Even so, I like BP/W setups.


I thought that the wing trying to put me face down on the surface was going to be a problem when I switched from my Jacket style BC to the BP/W and it really was not. I have never noticed mine trying to push me forward. I have really enjoyed the switch...

Phil

BSea
01-14-2008, 08:12
The only time I've ever had mine try to push me forward was when I put too much air in the wing on the surface. If you put just enough to float your head above the surface, you'll be fine.

navyhmc
01-14-2008, 09:00
The other problem with a wing is that on the surface, it will have a tendancy to float you face down. A lot of rec BCD's are intended to keep your face out of the water when fully inflated.

Even so, I like BP/W setups.


I've never had that problem with my DSS rig; unless of course I have the wing fully inflated or close to it. What BP/W are you using?

I'm curious, has anyone experienced this with their BP/W? If so, can you tell me what makes? (Remember, you shouldn't have to have the wing fully inflated in order to be on the surface, if you are weighted properly.)

I started with a Sea Quest AT-Pack way back when. Using a Dive-Rite Rec Wing now. I guess I should have qualified my answer, sorry to all. Fully inflated, absolutely face first, or when absolutely totally relaxed-as one would be when unconscious. When awake, it's not hard to maintain a face up attitude, minimal effort is needed, sometimes to the point of not knowing you're putting forth effort at all.

That has been my concern-a little bit, not a whole lot as I use a BP/W right now. I personally like the way it is easier to maintain a level position.

Puffer Fish
01-14-2008, 12:05
The other problem with a wing is that on the surface, it will have a tendancy to float you face down. A lot of rec BCD's are intended to keep your face out of the water when fully inflated.

Even so, I like BP/W setups.


I've never had that problem with my DSS rig; unless of course I have the wing fully inflated or close to it. What BP/W are you using?

I'm curious, has anyone experienced this with their BP/W? If so, can you tell me what makes? (Remember, you shouldn't have to have the wing fully inflated in order to be on the surface, if you are weighted properly.)

I started with a Sea Quest AT-Pack way back when. Using a Dive-Rite Rec Wing now. I guess I should have qualified my answer, sorry to all. Fully inflated, absolutely face first, or when absolutely totally relaxed-as one would be when unconscious. When awake, it's not hard to maintain a face up attitude, minimal effort is needed, sometimes to the point of not knowing you're putting forth effort at all.

That has been my concern-a little bit, not a whole lot as I use a BP/W right now. I personally like the way it is easier to maintain a level position.

Most BP/W's can do that, depending on the tank and the person. You can correct that by putting weights on the tank band.. has an amazing effect. On mine, I need 4 lbs for an aluminum 80.. nothing for 117 XF Faber. Fully inflated,half inflated, it then makes no difference.

Note: This whole issue is due to a tank wanting to float, and the resulting balance issue.

skdvr
01-14-2008, 12:35
The other problem with a wing is that on the surface, it will have a tendancy to float you face down. A lot of rec BCD's are intended to keep your face out of the water when fully inflated.

Even so, I like BP/W setups.


I've never had that problem with my DSS rig; unless of course I have the wing fully inflated or close to it. What BP/W are you using?

I'm curious, has anyone experienced this with their BP/W? If so, can you tell me what makes? (Remember, you shouldn't have to have the wing fully inflated in order to be on the surface, if you are weighted properly.)

I started with a Sea Quest AT-Pack way back when. Using a Dive-Rite Rec Wing now. I guess I should have qualified my answer, sorry to all. Fully inflated, absolutely face first, or when absolutely totally relaxed-as one would be when unconscious. When awake, it's not hard to maintain a face up attitude, minimal effort is needed, sometimes to the point of not knowing you're putting forth effort at all.

That has been my concern-a little bit, not a whole lot as I use a BP/W right now. I personally like the way it is easier to maintain a level position.

Most BP/W's can do that, depending on the tank and the person. You can correct that by putting weights on the tank band.. has an amazing effect. On mine, I need 4 lbs for an aluminum 80.. nothing for 117 XF Faber. Fully inflated,half inflated, it then makes no difference.

Note: This whole issue is due to a tank wanting to float, and the resulting balance issue.

I guess I did not think about that either because most of my diving is with a HP 130 so it keeps me upright, I will have to try to totally relax at the surface the next time I use an AL 80 and see if my wing (OxyCheq 30#) tries to put me face first at all...

Phil

BouzoukiJoe A.K.A. wrecker130 AKA Chuck Norris AKA joeforbroke (banned)
01-14-2008, 13:13
I've even had the face-forward issue with a jacket style and a nearly empty Aluminum tank.

RoyN
01-14-2008, 16:13
I used to use a jacket, to the knighthawk, and then now is the harness wing. I'm upgrading up to the apek wtx with an option to put a backplate but so far, my local shop haven't been able to get my order in.

MSilvia
01-14-2008, 16:28
whats the difference between a bp an a regular bc
They're both BCs. A backplate and wing setup just uses a horseshoe or oval shaped air bladder attached to a (usually metal) plate and harness instead of a bladder contained in a vest. The biggest difference I'm aware of is that there's a tremendous amount of misinformation regarding backplate and wing BCs on the internet, and substantially less rumor about conventional "stabilizer jacket" BCs.

Obviously, there are differences, but there's a lot of garbage to sift through to understand what the real benefits and shortcomings of each are. To give you an idea what they are like though, a backplate and wing typically look something like this when not assembled. The wing gets sandwiched between the plate and tank.
http://scubatoys.com/store/DIR/pics/hollis/HollisSoloHarness.jpghttp://scubatoys.com/store/DIR/pics/LarryGreenBladder.jpg

Gombessa
01-14-2008, 16:42
Out of about 5 dives so far on BP/W, I felt it was trying to put me face-down on the surface once. As a matter of course, it's more annoying than dangerous, though obviously it would be better if it didn't do this.

MSilvia
01-14-2008, 21:03
I felt it was trying to put me face-down on the surface once.
Until someone shows me a properly configured bp/w setup that does this, I'll maintain that this effect is almost certainly due to improper setup of the gear. Personally, I've never seen it happen to anyone who had a correctly fitted harness with a wing appropriately matched to the tanks they were using.

A loose harness, oversized or overinflated wing, inappropriately placed weights, and/or ill-fitting drysuit have been a significant part of the problem any time I've seen it.

Ryanh1801
01-14-2008, 21:50
I have only dove my BP/W 3 times so far, but love it compared to the jackets we used in OW. I can move around a lot easier. I am using a AL 80 right now and have not had it try and put my face in the water. I floated up right with no problem.

Puffer Fish
01-14-2008, 22:09
I felt it was trying to put me face-down on the surface once.
Until someone shows me a properly configured bp/w setup that does this, I'll maintain that this effect is almost certainly due to improper setup of the gear. Personally, I've never seen it happen to anyone who had a correctly fitted harness with a wing appropriately matched to the tanks they were using.

A loose harness, oversized or overinflated wing, inappropriately placed weights, and/or ill-fitting drysuit have been a significant part of the problem any time I've seen it.

I think that is an easy to make statement, where you define the problem as one, by definition, that involves something being wrong.

This is about center of gravity...if you put all the buoyancy at your back and the weights up front, you will be leaning forward. Taking air out of the wing, means only the top of the wing will have air...which changes the center of gravity a bit. But an empty aluminum tank will still be buoyant.

There are lots of ways to correct this (using a weight belt is one - putting weights on the tank is one). But if you are planning on using an underinflated wing as an option...I would question the potential safety issue involved. I guess you could say, if you have the issue, you must have the wrong size wing....but I don't think that is the right point of view.

I only have the issue with al tanks, and as I dive steel most of the time... don't have an issue, but if I did, it was not because of any "mistake" on my part. Actually, ever "expert" I have talked to about this, if you test their setup, they were either diving steel or had the issue, but did not know it.

MSilvia
01-15-2008, 07:28
I guess you could say, if you have the issue, you must have the wrong size wing....but I don't think that is the right point of view.
Wing choice matters, and if you use an inappropriate or poorly positioned wing for the tank or tanks you're diving, you shouldn't expect it to work well. The flexibility and reconfigurability of backplates is much touted, but while it's easy to set the gear up so that it's ideal for a given type of dive, the flip side of that coin is that it's also easy to set it up so that it's not. My first wing was just terrible with the tanks I used, and as it turns out, that wing wasn't meant for those tanks. When I changed wings, a number of problems disappeared as if by magic.

It sounds as though you're suggesting that the problems somehow weren't with my initially poor choice of wing, but I'm not clear on where you think the problems were. As I see it, the fault was entirely mine... I didn't know enough to make a good choice, and so I made a poor one. Identifying, learning from, and correcting my mistake corrected the problems.

By way of analogy, if I put slick racing tires on a 4x4 and try to drive it up an icy hill, it would be silly to say it was sliding because 4x4s aren't good in the snow. Likewise, if your bp/w isn't performing well, it might well be because you have it set up poorly for what you're trying to do, and not because there is an inherent problem with bp/w BCs.

marchand
01-15-2008, 12:13
...has shoulder strap quick disconnects, integrated weights, your standard crotch strap,but it also has a quick disconnect and padded shoulder straps..I think it woul be fair to say that mine is the anti-BP/W...

how do the quick disconnects work? and do you have to buy the straps assembled, or can you make quick disconnect straps?

I made my own quick disconnect straps. I didn't save any money, but I have metal buckles instead of plastic ones.

here is a link
http://forum.scubatoys.com/diy/7580-harness.html

MLenyo
01-15-2008, 16:25
...has shoulder strap quick disconnects, integrated weights, your standard crotch strap,but it also has a quick disconnect and padded shoulder straps..I think it woul be fair to say that mine is the anti-BP/W...

how do the quick disconnects work? and do you have to buy the straps assembled, or can you make quick disconnect straps?

I made my own quick disconnect straps. I didn't save any money, but I have metal buckles instead of plastic ones.

here is a link
http://forum.scubatoys.com/diy/7580-harness.html

awesome, i'll have to check this out in more detail. thanks!

cummings66
01-15-2008, 17:33
My first wing was just terrible with the tanks I used, and as it turns out, that wing wasn't meant for those tanks. When I changed wings, a number of problems disappeared as if by magic.


Just so I understand what your problem was, what wing and tank did you use that had problems? I'm not getting why you need a special wing for say AL tanks and one for Steel HP100's for example.

What did you have?

I get the singles for singles, doubles for doubles, and basic amounts of lift, but I'm not following your example completely. IE you don't need 70 lbs of lift for a single tank.

Scoobidoo
01-15-2008, 17:57
The other problem with a wing is that on the surface, it will have a tendancy to float you face down. A lot of rec BCD's are intended to keep your face out of the water when fully inflated.

Even so, I like BP/W setups.

I've never had that problem with my DSS rig; unless of course I have the wing fully inflated or close to it. What BP/W are you using?

I'm curious, has anyone experienced this with their BP/W? If so, can you tell me what makes? (Remember, you shouldn't have to have the wing fully inflated in order to be on the surface, if you are weighted properly.)
I also have a DSS rig, and never had the face down problem. I have heard a lot of people complaining about the same problem with other BP/W rigs, not sure if it's the make or just because they aren't weighted properly? Like Tobin says all the time, if you're correctly weighted, you should never need to fully inflate the wing and therefore shouldn't have the face down problem.

MSilvia
01-16-2008, 10:27
Just so I understand what your problem was, what wing and tank did you use that had problems?
I had 8" diameter AL80 doubles with a DiveRite RecWing. I never was able to get them to trim out right, and as the 56# wing was too big for any single tank and too narrow for 8" doubles, I got to see first hand the problems that can be caused by a mismatch.

Gombessa
01-16-2008, 12:31
I felt it was trying to put me face-down on the surface once.
Until someone shows me a properly configured bp/w setup that does this, I'll maintain that this effect is almost certainly due to improper setup of the gear.

That's entirely possible, and quite probable in my case. I'll find out after my class this weekend. However, considering the apparent rise in the number of people using BP/W setups, it's also possible that the configuration tends to be much less tolerant of imperfect setup, which is why it tends to come up as much as it does.

MSilvia
01-16-2008, 12:42
That's entirely possible, and quite probable in my case. I'll find out after my class this weekend. However, considering the apparent rise in the number of people using BP/W setups, it's also possible that the configuration tends to be much less tolerant of imperfect setup, which is why it tends to come up as much as it does.
I'd go along with that. While I personally feel that it's hard to beat a properly set up bp/w, it really does require a proper set up. A poorly set up bp/w is hardly worth diving.

What class are you taking?

Gombessa
01-16-2008, 12:52
I'd go along with that. While I personally feel that it's hard to beat a properly set up bp/w, it really does require a proper set up. A poorly set up bp/w is hardly worth diving.

What class are you taking?

It's called Essentials of Recreational Diving - kind of like pre-Fundies. Started by former GUE instructors Andrew Georgitsis, Joe Talavera and Delia Milliron.

BSea
01-16-2008, 12:54
Just so I understand what your problem was, what wing and tank did you use that had problems?
I had 8" diameter AL80 doubles with a DiveRite RecWing. I never was able to get them to trim out right, and as the 56# wing was too big for any single tank and too narrow for 8" doubles, I got to see first hand the problems that can be caused by a mismatch.I didn't know they made 8" diameter AL80s. Could they have been AL100s? But you're right the rec wing just isn't a great wing for either doubles or singles. It will work, but not great.

MSilvia
01-16-2008, 13:39
It's called Essentials of Recreational Diving - kind of like pre-Fundies. Started by former GUE instructors Andrew Georgitsis, Joe Talavera and Delia Milliron.
If you're taking a GUE class, no worries... you'll definately know how to tweak a bp/w after they're through with you. :)

I didn't know they made 8" diameter AL80s.
I may have misremembered, and haven't dived AL80s in a long time now. In any case, the wing didn't fit them worth a darn.