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View Full Version : So what if my mask is on my forehead - dmdoss



Vercingetorix
07-29-2007, 09:14
Like sex, politics, and religion, discussing wearing the mask on the forehead is a social conversational taboo. One man, dmdoss, dares to issue the challenge. Let us discuss.
http://forum.scubatoys.com/customavatars/avatar328_2.gif

I see no reason that such an act of rebellion would make a diver a pariah among peers.

Dive Training magazine (Oct 2006) discusses the issue in depth.

Let's get these out of the way:
1. "It indicates a diver in distress". B.S. Does dmdoss looked distressed to you? If he were anymore relaxed, he'd fall asleep. While divers gather on the surface prior to descent, they are not distressed. If they are, they need to abort that dive NOW. Heck, they ought not to have giant-strided off the dive boat. At the conclusion of the dive, as the diver surface-swims towards the exit point or walks on the boat, beach, or dock, the diver is clearly not distressed.

There are other actions in the behaviour cluster other than mask on forehead. Flailing about. Throwing the mask and reg away. Screaming. Splashing on the surface. Pay attention to those signs

2. "There's a better chance of losing the mask if struck by a wave". OK. But this is a personal choice. If I choose to lose my mask this way, then so be it.

3. "We've ALWAYS done it this way. It's the way of NAUI, PADI, SDI, SSI, ABC, XYZ,..." Oh, please...

My opinion FWIW: a diver may wear the mask anywhere he/she chooses. On forehead. Around back. Around neck. Wherever. dmdoss, I applaud you. :smiley32:

Now. Give me a moment while I don my flame-retardant wetsuit.

Flame on.

Splitlip
07-29-2007, 09:42
Vercingetorix has said it all, and quite well.

No flames from me.

BSea
07-29-2007, 10:20
I agree. I pull mine down around my neck when I surface in a lake. That way I can't lose it. I'm not DIR, more like DWFR (Do What Feels Right). But all those who complain about a mask on the forehead, just go soak your head. . . . . . . .Hey, that's a good idea, Might need to go soak mine for about an hour or so about 30 feet below. But I think today is Honey Do Day, so no diving for me.

WaterRat
07-29-2007, 10:21
I wear mine backwards when not under. Besides not having a nose on the back of my head to hold it on, it's almost as secure as wearing it correctly.

Ron

Queen
07-29-2007, 10:24
My mask has resided comfortably on my forehead since I started snorkeling when I was a kid. I would pop to the surface, shove my mask up and yell towards shore "hey dad, do starfish bite?", pull the mask back down and disappear to chase the fishies. :clap:

texdiveguy
07-29-2007, 11:14
I have been know to slide that pup on my forehead in 'lakes' upon surfacing to take a second to clear the snot from my nose!!

medic001918
07-29-2007, 11:14
Vercingetorix has said it all, and quite well.

No flames from me.

Agreed.

Shane

DougNR
07-29-2007, 13:15
Now if you had posted this on "that other board" you would probably get that flame you were looking for. This is one of the things I really like about the ST forum.

IMO the mask on the forehead is just one more 'thing' used to criticize others. I see more perfectly comfortable divers on the surface with their masks pushed up than otherwise, and if they were in a panic there were much more obvious signs than where the mask ends up, which as often as not might be completely off and lost.

The May/June issue of ALERT DIVER commemorated Richard Vann as Diver of the Year for Science, and a photo shows him at the surface with - you guessed it, his mask perched on his forehead. The caption even had to make a jokeing comment about it.

Bottom line - a pushed up mask might be one sign of many to factor into the big picture for a particular situation, but is not in and of itself a sign of distress. Again, just my opinion.

Now - go dive with your mask pushed up on your forehead while you're on the surface. At least you'll be in the water!

thesmoothdome
07-29-2007, 13:28
No flames from me because if someone is happy, someone's happy. The only thing I'd point out that if lifeguards and DMs are trained to look at this as a distress signal they'll have to do at least a double take to make sure that person is not in distress. Odds of something bad happening somewhere else during that time: slim. Possible: yes.

ScubaToys Larry
07-29-2007, 13:34
Ok.. I just have to share. So there I am at Lake Travis, on my back, slowly kicking along with 4 students I have. Mask on backwards proudly showing off the ScubaToys Logo. We're relaxing, taking in the day, and talking about the dive we've just finished. Some guy with more Patches and chevrons on his jacket than logs in his book is standing on shore and yells over to me, "Hey Buddy! I'm a trained Rescue Diver and a mask on your forehead is an international sign of distress!!"

I smile, reach down and pull out my knife and start cleaning my blade, and shout back, "Well then sport - you're a rescue diver, why don't you come save me?"

He walked away... I smiled some more.

Vercingetorix
07-29-2007, 13:40
I smile, reach down and pull out my knife and start cleaning my blade, and shout back, "Well then sport - you're a rescue diver, why don't you come save me?" Well played FTW.

thesmoothdome
07-29-2007, 14:03
You know if you read through the DAN files that most divers in distress take the time to turn their mask around backwards on their forheads to show off their shop logos. Really. They do. :anim_peep:

In all seriousness, the one active panic situation that I was involved in the rescue of, the first thing the girl did when she hit the surface was pull her mask off her face and place is squarely on her forehead. She could just have easily tore it all the way off her head though.

Vercingetorix
07-29-2007, 14:10
In all seriousness, the one active panic situation that I was involved in the rescue of, the first thing the girl did when she hit the surface was pull her mask off her face and place is squarely on her forehead. She could just have easily tore it all the way off her head though.Was that the ONLY behaviour she demonstrated to indicate her distress? Or, was she flailing and shouting? How else did she indicate her predicament? I would find it difficult to image that she simply hit the surface, placed her mask on her forehead, inflated her BC, folded her hands, and quietly announced to anyone passing by, "By the way, I'm a bit panicked here. need rescuing, please".

creggur
07-29-2007, 14:22
I always turn mine around backwards to show off the ST logo!!!

Vercingetorix
07-29-2007, 14:27
I always turn mine around backwards to show off the ST logo!!!As do I. Unfortunately, mine is getting well worn, so the logo is fading. I wonder if Larry will just let me swap for a new one. (It being in his best interest to advertise, and all.:smiley2:)

thesmoothdome
07-29-2007, 14:29
In all seriousness, the one active panic situation that I was involved in the rescue of, the first thing the girl did when she hit the surface was pull her mask off her face and place is squarely on her forehead. She could just have easily tore it all the way off her head though.Was that the ONLY behaviour she demonstrated to indicate her distress? Or, was she flailing and shouting? How else did she indicate her predicament? I would find it difficult to image that she simply hit the surface, placed her mask on her forehead, inflated her BC, folded her hands, and quietly announced to anyone passing by, "By the way, I'm a bit panicked here. need rescuing, please".


Oh no! That along with spitting out her reg was the first thing she did. It was during my wife's OW class. Having taught for the shop previously, they allowed me to tag along and be her buddy (I wasn't actively teaching at the time). There were 6 students, 2 instructors (one the owner of the shop who was team teaching with a new instructor) and me.

My wife and I are on the surface already. I don't remember why. Well, she and the new instructor surface and she freaks out. Mask goes up. Reg goes out. She's heaving for breath, flailing around, trying to climb up the instructor.

Back to the original idea of the post. It's just one sign. Does it always mean distress. No, of course not. Just pointing out that in a real situation, that's one of the signs I've seen.

JahJahwarrior
07-29-2007, 14:29
Turned around backwards, the strap is on your forehead, not your mask. Unless you are a mother, then you have eyes in the back of your head, and the mask can be considered to be on your forehead when turned around. But I doubt that Larry is a mother.

So Mr. Chevron is most definitely not a doctor!

texdiveguy
07-29-2007, 14:34
Having rescued 2 distressed divers from the water just recently I can tell you that what caught my attention to their severe situation was the thrashing/splashing of the water---then 'his' screams for "HELP". After swimming to them from shore I found both divers wearing their masks thank goodness...now be it one was 2-3ft. under water and sinking and no reg. in the mouth....the mask was still in place....the other diver exhausted and worn down still though wearing his mask. It (mask on) made my task of rescue and transport back to shore and waiting assistance safer for all 3 of us.

I at times as pointed out earlier in this thread will flip my mask to my forehead for a minute in calm waters upon surfacing---no crime.

paintballindivr
07-29-2007, 15:49
larry said it all. i hav a clip for my fins and mask and wen I surface I slip my mask on the clip along with my fins....

along with the mask on the forehead... can somone explain why we call fins fins and not flippers I mean yes it does sound juvinile but just curious

fire diver
07-29-2007, 16:27
I like to call them flippers to annoy some of the die-hards. Other than that, they are fins, becuase that is what everyone calls them.

FD

plot
07-29-2007, 16:47
from now on, i'm gonna call them flippers.

and i'm gonna call my mask my goggles.

and i'm gonna call my regulator my breathing thing majig, and my snorkel will now be known as my hoseless regulator.

TxHockeyGuy
07-29-2007, 16:50
I've seen a diver in distress and they did put their mask on their forehead, but that was not what caught my attention, it was all the splashing of water. I think the entire mask on forehead thing is way overblown. It might be something to look for, but it isn't the end all be all of watching for distressed divers.

fire diver
07-29-2007, 16:57
from now on, i'm gonna call them flippers.

and i'm gonna call my mask my goggles.

and i'm gonna call my regulator my breathing thing majig, and my snorkel will now be known as my hoseless regulator.

No, you have to complete the layman terminology. Your reg is now your 'respirator', and your tank is your 'oxygen bottle'. Funny how the snorkle stays a snorkle.

FD

plot
07-29-2007, 16:58
good point. i'm still gonna keep calling my snorkel my hoseless regulator.

Black-Gorrilla
07-29-2007, 17:08
my brothers SSI instructor told them... mask on your forehead is for disterss (as we all learned) and he encouraged them trough out the course(he did it at college over 6 weeks, 1 day a week for a few hours) and trough the course, he would simply yell out "6 pack" as the diver that did it now owes him a six pack, and if he's a younger diver and cant buy beer... then it was diner.
i saw this happen a few times as i was in the class during pool session checking it out.
me personally... i keep my mask on, or on my forehead, or on my neck... i can never put it in the same place over and over...

Splitlip
07-29-2007, 18:04
So what I am reading here, based on true life experiences. A diver in distress will:
1. Wear the mask on his or her forehead or
2. Wear the mask on his or her face.

I gonna leave the mask on the boat from now on. That way every one knows I am cool.

Splitlip
07-29-2007, 18:07
from now on, i'm gonna call them flippers.



Well fish do have fins. On the other hand marine mammals have "flippers".

TxHockeyGuy
07-29-2007, 18:15
So what I am reading here, based on true life experiences. A diver in distress will:
1. Wear the mask on his or her forehead or
2. Wear the mask on his or her face.

I gonna leave the mask on the boat from now on. That way every one knows I am cool.

:D - I like it.

downunder
07-29-2007, 18:24
I have never understood why they take something so comfortable and natural and make it a 'distress' signal. It just seems so stupid to me! Sometimes when you surface, you want to rub your eyes for a minute before swimming back to the shore. Nice raise up of the mask and then back on...

ertechsg
07-29-2007, 18:47
I always turn mine around backwards to show off the ST logo!!!As do I. Unfortunately, mine is getting well worn, so the logo is fading. I wonder if Larry will just let me swap for a new one. (It being in his best interest to advertise, and all.:smiley2:)
I have a strap from another diveshop(sorry) but would be glad to trade and help advertise. As far as the mask goes why do I care its not mine.So do what you want:smiley20:

creggur
07-29-2007, 18:56
I have a strap from another diveshop(sorry)

Sorry??? Sorry???? Sorry just doesn't get it mister...

You will need to face toward Carrollton, Tx. and repeat after me 'ST, ST, only ST for me...ST, ST, ST only ST for me. Do this 4 times a day for the next 30 days!!! Then and only then will the grand poobah entertain your request!!!:smiley36:

JK :smilie39:

silentstone7
07-29-2007, 19:41
from now on, i'm gonna call them flippers.

and i'm gonna call my mask my goggles.

and i'm gonna call my regulator my breathing thing majig, and my snorkel will now be known as my hoseless regulator.


You're my hero.:smiley20:

Splitlip
07-29-2007, 19:57
from now on, i'm gonna call them flippers.

and i'm gonna call my mask my goggles.

and i'm gonna call my regulator my breathing thing majig, and my snorkel will now be known as my hoseless regulator.

Don't forget your oxygen tank and life vest

BSea
07-29-2007, 20:01
from now on, i'm gonna call them flippers.

and i'm gonna call my mask my goggles.

and i'm gonna call my regulator my breathing thing majig, and my snorkel will now be known as my hoseless regulator.

Don't forget your oxygen tank and life vest

Or for the Teckie SKIN divers - NITROUS

Black-Gorrilla
07-29-2007, 20:55
i usually keep my hose-less regulator in my life jacket pocket...

someone said it best already... "why take something so comfortable and turn it into a distress signal?"

dmdoss
07-29-2007, 23:02
Well, crap. It's just the easiest place to put it. How you see me in the pic is about as excited as I get. So the guy's diving with me would know if I was in distress. I was trying to rattle some cages with my signature. I just think its a crap sign of distress, there are plenty of other things a diver in distress would do. And yes, if I had that as a signature on the other board I would get flamed for it. Humm think I'll do it now.

Moxie
07-29-2007, 23:13
I too think it's an awful sign of distress. Waving around my sausage works a whole lot better! It can be seen from more than 20 feet away.

picxie
07-30-2007, 03:56
I like to call them flippers to annoy some of the die-hards. Other than that, they are fins, becuase that is what everyone calls them.

FD

Sometimes I call them fins, sometimes I call them flippers. Personally I'm not fussed but I have noticed I get corrected when I use the term flippers. Not sure where the term came from originally though.

Moxie
07-30-2007, 05:33
You can't wear pink flippers and expect people to take you seriously. My gear is of many colours. Why? Because it was cheaper and I could more stuff that way.

It doesn't bother me any and I love to use terms that cheese off the very serious.

Vercingetorix
07-30-2007, 08:03
And yes, if I had that as a signature on the other board I would get flamed for it. Humm think I'll do it now. Be sure to post in this Technical-DIR area (http://www.scubaboard.com/forumdisplay.php?f=166) to ensure maximum flaming. Forget the flame-retardant wet-suit. You'll need this suit (http://www.fireweld.com.sg/Safety/Bristol/Suittable.htm).

Good luck with that :smiley20:

DUnder
07-30-2007, 08:07
I feel that you should wear your mask anyplace you like. but wearing my mask around my neck did cause me to lose my snokle, beening bunched up around my neck pushed the snokle keeper off my mask strap.

fire diver
07-30-2007, 08:14
SO then it was a good thing, right?

texdiveguy
07-30-2007, 08:27
..........yawn.

BSea
07-30-2007, 10:15
I feel that you should wear your mask anyplace you like. but wearing my mask around my neck did cause me to lose my snokle, beening bunched up around my neck pushed the snokle keeper off my mask strap.

That's only a problem if you take a snorkle diving.

3rdEye
07-30-2007, 10:44
my brothers SSI instructor told them... mask on your forehead is for disterss (as we all learned) and he encouraged them trough out the course(he did it at college over 6 weeks, 1 day a week for a few hours) and trough the course, he would simply yell out "6 pack" as the diver that did it now owes him a six pack, and if he's a younger diver and cant buy beer... then it was diner.
i saw this happen a few times as i was in the class during pool session checking it out.
me personally... i keep my mask on, or on my forehead, or on my neck... i can never put it in the same place over and over...


my instructors did the 6 pack thing as well.....

i got into the habit of the mask around the neck thing pretty quick....makes sense to me, as I'd not like to lose it in the ocean because it gets knocked off....the rest of you can do what you want, but if someone's mask goes to the ocean floor because it got knocked off his head and I have to go get it....well, I had better be getting a six pack....

Black-Gorrilla
07-30-2007, 12:07
thats the spirit.. i wish i had a 6 pack for every time i found a mask...
i'd have 6 beers already!! and would have to give it back to the diver that found mine underwater... and put the puzzle together..
me at like 30' with no mask... so the mask he found might be mine.

loudgonzo
07-30-2007, 13:21
similar but unrelated...
Diving in nassau a few months ago, we surfaced from the dive and were waiting to get back on the boat, the DM yells to everyone in the water "...Keep your regulators or snorkels in your mouth!.." There were a few divers who didn't do it right away and he kept yelling. I put my reg back in my mouth, as it was the first dive of the day and I didn't want to be on the boat for the 2nd site.

dallasdivergirl
07-30-2007, 14:00
I take off my mask & attach it to my bc.

BSea
07-30-2007, 14:01
Kind of reminds me of how I got my 2nd pair of fins. In college, 1 of my friends was using my fins & just snorkling. he came back to the dock, and took off my new rocket fins (it was 78 after all). He had fins as a kid that floated, and thought these would too. I dived in & caught 1, but the other was lost. I tried to dive for it, and must have looked funny scuba diving with 1 fin. Long story short, He bought me a new pair, and I gave him the extra fin.

Jason
07-30-2007, 15:28
Let's get these out of the way:
1. "It indicates a diver in distress". B.S. Does dmdoss looked distressed to you? If he were anymore relaxed, he'd fall asleep...

There are other actions in the behaviour cluster other than mask on forehead. Flailing about. Throwing the mask and reg away. Screaming. Splashing on the surface. Pay attention to those signs

2. "There's a better chance of losing the mask if struck by a wave". OK. But this is a personal choice. If I choose to lose my mask this way, then so be it.

3. "We've ALWAYS done it this way. It's the way of NAUI, PADI, SDI, SSI, ABC, XYZ,..." Oh, please...

My opinion FWIW: a diver may wear the mask anywhere he/she chooses. On forehead. Around back. Around neck. Wherever. dmdoss, I applaud you. :smiley32:


Without Flaming anyone or pointing fingers.. I would like to offer couterpoints to this discussion. I would like to add that we ALL have done this and there are NO perfect divers out there.

1. You are correct, dmdoss does not look in distress, however, I did do a double take to make sure. He clearly is not flailing about, splashing, waving his hands for help. But a sign of DCS is fatigue. You can add another 30 seconds of me staring at you if you have a mask on your forehead so that I can possibly rule this one out.

2. I own a expensive mask, I would rather spend $70 on something new rather than replacing something I already owned. If you are in the habit of doing this, Please... Buy the new Oceanic data mask I would really like to find one!

3. Yes, we have done it this way for years. Remember there are divers out there that have been diving for 20+ years and have all agreed this "is" a international sign of distress. Why should we change the rules for the comfort of us making a "very slight" mistake.

Bottom line, this is a Very slight mistake and we are all guilty of it in some time or another. If you knowingly place a mask on your forehead as a habit, don't be surprised that there may be people staring at you and evaluating your every move.

As for "That Guy" on the shoreline yelling out better ways to dive, this is clearly a demonstration of "hey buddy, Im a ..."

Again, Im not flaming anyone. just offering advice.

Vercingetorix
07-30-2007, 16:01
1. You are correct, dmdoss does not look in distress, however, I did do a double take to make sure. He clearly is not flailing about, splashing, waving his hands for help. But a sign of DCS is fatigue. You can add another 30 seconds of me staring at you if you have a mask on your forehead so that I can possibly rule this one out.DCS normally doesn't strike immediately upon surfacing. The scope of the discussion is "distress", not DCS.


2. I own a expensive mask, I would rather spend $70 on something new rather than replacing something I already owned. If you are in the habit of doing this, Please... Buy the new Oceanic data mask I would really like to find one!I reiterate, this is a personal choice to lose or not lose th mask.


3. Yes, we have done it this way for years. Remember there are divers out there that have been diving for 20+ years and have all agreed this "is" a international sign of distress. Why should we change the rules for the comfort of us making a "very slight" mistake. You assume "all divers" have agreed. This is speculative at best; fallacious at worst. We are not "changing the rules"; simply challenging the notion that making the personal choice to wear the mask on the forehead means "I'm in distress." Clearly, it does not. Why do you regard this as a mistake?


Bottom line, this is a Very slight mistake and we are all guilty of it in some time or another. If you knowingly place a mask on your forehead as a habit, don't be surprised that there may be people staring at you and evaluating your every move.You regard this as a mistake. Others, do not. Should others choose to stare at my every move, then they waste their time doing so; their choice, not mine.

I, too, am not flaming. I'm simply asking the basis of you refutation to ensure I understand your analysis.

BSea
07-30-2007, 16:15
Yes, we have done it this way for years. Remember there are divers out there that have been diving for 20+ years and have all agreed this "is" a international sign of distress. Why should we change the rules for the comfort of us making a "very slight" mistake.
Hmmm. I've been diving for 30+ years. I'm pretty sure I never agreed to this. In fact, I don't think I've ever been asked.

But on the serious side, unless someone is diving with an insta buddy, he/she probably already has someone doing more than putting a mask on the forehead to help them. And I agree, a mask on the forehead probably isn't going to do near as much as someone blowing a whistle or waving hysterically. So now I guess the "All Agreed" thing is out the window.

thor
07-30-2007, 16:24
I smile, reach down and pull out my knife and start cleaning my blade, and shout back, "Well then sport - you're a rescue diver, why don't you come save me?"
.




I think I probably would have blown my dive alert at point blank range.

Oh and my mask on my forehead is obviously more effective and easier to notice than blowing the equiivalent of a truck horn at the surface

Jason
07-30-2007, 17:03
DCS normally doesn't strike immediately upon surfacing. The scope of the discussion is "distress", not DCS.
I would consider anyone who displayed the signs or symptoms of DCS to be in distress. Rather than wait for them to pass a point of not being able to perform a self recovery, I would assist if someone who possess these attributes. It is possible to have signs or symptoms of DCS even before they are topside. More about that here (http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/medical/articles/article.asp?articleid=65)


I reiterate, this is a personal choice to lose or not lose th mask.
Agreed!


You assume "all divers" have agreed. This is speculative at best; fallacious at worst. We are not "changing the rules"; simply challenging the notion that making the personal choice to wear the mask on the forehead means "I'm in distress." Clearly, it does not. Why do you regard this as a mistake?

Would you agree that it is a "possible" sign of distress? Given the nature of this topic, you already know that its a possibility. Why would you put it on your forehead if you willingly know that people can and will mistake your sign? If you know right from wrong, then yes, its a mistake. Not a big one, and most likely not a life threatening one at that.


You regard this as a mistake. Others, do not. Should others choose to stare at my every move, then they waste their time doing so; their choice, not mine.
Imagine the possibility of you needing help and were not able to flail, scream, make noise. What if someone did recognize the "International Sign of Distress". Perhaps if you were saved on someones "notion" would you regard this as a waste of time then?

All is good in good conversation. I do not challenge your (or anyones) abilities as a diver, I do not regard myself as a better one. As far as I am concerned.. This is a good conversation.

;)

Vercingetorix
07-30-2007, 17:17
Would you agree that it is a "possible" sign of distress? Given the nature of this topic, you already know that its a possibility. Why would you put it on your forehead if you willingly know that people can and will mistake your sign? If you know right from wrong, then yes, its a mistake. Not a big one, and most likely not a life threatening one at that.I'm saying that distress behaiour cluster encompasses more than a single action. Other actions must accompany this in order to be taken as distress.


Imagine the possibility of you needing help and were not able to flail, scream, make noise. What if someone did recognize the "International Sign of Distress". Perhaps if you were saved on someones "notion" would you regard this as a waste of time then?Were I unable to move, then that may mean I do not have the energy even to lift my mask to my forehead. You also assume this is an end of dive situation. I return you to my initial premise whereby we are floating upon the suface waiting to descend as a group. My floating compadres would see that I'm not in distress simply by having the mask on the forehead.


I do not challenge your (or anyones) abilities as a diver, To do so, sir, would be a most egregious insult. One, for which only dueling at dawn, could restore honor.:smiley2:

thesmoothdome
07-30-2007, 17:50
[QUOTE=Vercingetorix;12296 Should others choose to stare at my every move, then they waste their time doing so; their choice, not mine.
[QUOTE]

As I said earlier, I personally do not care one way or another. However, and I know I made this point earlier, if a lifeguard or a DM makes the choice to stare at your every move to make sure you're not in distress and something goes wrong somewhere else in the process, no one is going to feel too good about that.

I try to make my DM's job as easy as possible because from experience, I know how stressful that job can be. Like it or or not, until they get to know you, they're stressed out about you.

DirtyWaterIL
07-30-2007, 17:55
The mask on the forehead thing is simple...It is a sign of distress if your mask is on your forehead and your splashing around screaming "Help me! I'm going to die!". If you have your mask on your forehead while leisurely kicking on the surface while chatting with your dive buddy then your just a really cool MOF rebel.

Vercingetorix
07-30-2007, 17:57
As I said earlier, I personally do not care one way or another. However, and I know I made this point earlier, if a lifeguard or a DM makes the choice to stare at your every move to make sure you're not in distress and something goes wrong somewhere else in the process, no one is going to feel too good about that. I believe they will look at the diver for a few seconds and quickly ascertain that the diver is not distressed, then move on. I cannot envision them staring, and staring, and staring, and...

Jason
07-30-2007, 18:02
I'm saying that distress behaiour cluster encompasses more than a single action. Other actions must accompany this in order to be taken as distress.
Agreed! I wouldn't jump into the water and save someone until I had solid proof that they were in distress. This would just be one of the actions I would regard as asking for attention and possible sign of distress.


Were I unable to move, then that may mean I do not have the energy even to lift my mask to my forehead. You also assume this is an end of dive situation. I return you to my initial premise whereby we are floating upon the suface waiting to descend as a group. My floating compadres would see that I'm not in distress simply by having the mask on the forehead.

It is possible to have the energy to perform one last task and a small task it may be. To be cautious I would assume the worst until proofing otherwise. Its another possibility for me to notice you when I first arrive to a dive site. I may not be aware that you are coming or going. Again, if I were to see a mask on the forehead, I would regard as a possible sign. Seeing your compadres near usually is a sign of non distress, therefore easy to dismiss your sign.


To do so, sir, would be a most egregious insult. One, for which only dueling at dawn, could restore honor.:smiley2:

Your not about to slap me with the white glove are you? :smiley2:

The very moral of my discussion is that we all give signs whether they mean distress, non distress, intent of direction were would like to travel, etc. This sign of putting the mask on the forehead has been recognized as "a" sign of distress so why would I intentionally put my mask there if I am aware that it will gain attention? We as fellow divers should practice safe diving and to be aware of possibilities and scenarios of what "could be" and "what is". A mask on the forehead is not a locked in solid means of distress, just a "could be". I will always do a double take if I see one on the forehead and I will never regard as a waste of time.

thesmoothdome
07-30-2007, 18:05
There's another thread going about whether or not HELP or call 911 should be used in rescue training drills. Texdiveguy just added in that thread that he was just involved in a rescue at CSSP. To quote him: Now having gone through an actual rescue with real life threating conditions...ever 'freaking' second counts!

If the trained professionals who we count on are conditioned to check that as a sign of distress, is it worth doing? Not for me. Everyone has to make their own choice though.

Puffer Fish
07-30-2007, 20:37
Yes, we have done it this way for years. Remember there are divers out there that have been diving for 20+ years and have all agreed this "is" a international sign of distress. Why should we change the rules for the comfort of us making a "very slight" mistake.
Hmmm. I've been diving for 30+ years. I'm pretty sure I never agreed to this. In fact, I don't think I've ever been asked.

But on the serious side, unless someone is diving with an insta buddy, he/she probably already has someone doing more than putting a mask on the forehead to help them. And I agree, a mask on the forehead probably isn't going to do near as much as someone blowing a whistle or waving hysterically. So now I guess the "All Agreed" thing is out the window.


I just have to do this..

Ok, as someone that has been diving 40 years, I have never seen anyone "save" a diver with their mask on their head.. actually I have never seen anyone ask.. or inquire..but like Larry, I'm pretty laid back...

Actually, I think you are lucky if when someone is screaming they actually get any attention.

TxHockeyGuy
07-30-2007, 20:44
I do not challenge your (or anyones) abilities as a diver, To do so, sir, would be a most egregious insult. One, for which only dueling at dawn, could restore honor.:smiley2:

I've seen you dive, I'll happily challenge your abilities as a diver. Now where's that suit you posted earlier... :smiley2:

Splitlip
07-30-2007, 20:44
1. You are correct, dmdoss does not look in distress, however, I did do a double take to make sure. He clearly is not flailing about, splashing, waving his hands for help. But a sign of DCS is fatigue. You can add another 30 seconds of me staring at you if you have a mask on your forehead so that I can possibly rule this one out.DCS normally doesn't strike immediately upon surfacing. The scope of the discussion is "distress", not DCS.


2. I own a expensive mask, I would rather spend $70 on something new rather than replacing something I already owned. If you are in the habit of doing this, Please... Buy the new Oceanic data mask I would really like to find one!I reiterate, this is a personal choice to lose or not lose th mask.


3. Yes, we have done it this way for years. Remember there are divers out there that have been diving for 20+ years and have all agreed this "is" a international sign of distress. Why should we change the rules for the comfort of us making a "very slight" mistake. You assume "all divers" have agreed. This is speculative at best; fallacious at worst. We are not "changing the rules"; simply challenging the notion that making the personal choice to wear the mask on the forehead means "I'm in distress." Clearly, it does not. Why do you regard this as a mistake?


Bottom line, this is a Very slight mistake and we are all guilty of it in some time or another. If you knowingly place a mask on your forehead as a habit, don't be surprised that there may be people staring at you and evaluating your every move.You regard this as a mistake. Others, do not. Should others choose to stare at my every move, then they waste their time doing so; their choice, not mine.

I, too, am not flaming. I'm simply asking the basis of you refutation to ensure I understand your analysis.
Bro:
I am becoming your biggest fan:smiley20:

Puffer Fish
07-30-2007, 20:47
1. You are correct, dmdoss does not look in distress, however, I did do a double take to make sure. He clearly is not flailing about, splashing, waving his hands for help. But a sign of DCS is fatigue. You can add another 30 seconds of me staring at you if you have a mask on your forehead so that I can possibly rule this one out.DCS normally doesn't strike immediately upon surfacing. The scope of the discussion is "distress", not DCS.


2. I own a expensive mask, I would rather spend $70 on something new rather than replacing something I already owned. If you are in the habit of doing this, Please... Buy the new Oceanic data mask I would really like to find one!I reiterate, this is a personal choice to lose or not lose th mask.


3. Yes, we have done it this way for years. Remember there are divers out there that have been diving for 20+ years and have all agreed this "is" a international sign of distress. Why should we change the rules for the comfort of us making a "very slight" mistake. You assume "all divers" have agreed. This is speculative at best; fallacious at worst. We are not "changing the rules"; simply challenging the notion that making the personal choice to wear the mask on the forehead means "I'm in distress." Clearly, it does not. Why do you regard this as a mistake?


Bottom line, this is a Very slight mistake and we are all guilty of it in some time or another. If you knowingly place a mask on your forehead as a habit, don't be surprised that there may be people staring at you and evaluating your every move.You regard this as a mistake. Others, do not. Should others choose to stare at my every move, then they waste their time doing so; their choice, not mine.

I, too, am not flaming. I'm simply asking the basis of you refutation to ensure I understand your analysis.
Bro:
I am becoming your biggest fan:smiley20:
That will just go to his head.. and then his mask will fall off.

I still have my original mask (from the 70's) from thousands of forehead events.

dmdoss
07-30-2007, 21:02
Well if you see me on the surface with my mask on my forehead, and have to do a double take. I'll do my best to entertain you.

Splitlip
07-30-2007, 21:04
Bro:
I am becoming your biggest fan:smiley20:
That will just go to his head.. and then his mask will fall off.


:smilie39:

Puffer Fish
07-30-2007, 21:06
I alway wonder when "we" had this meeting and all decided that this was a sign of distress. Having rescued a few people in real situations.. I have yet to see this behavior..

Splitlip
07-30-2007, 21:23
I alway wonder when "we" had this meeting and all decided that this was a sign of distress. Having rescued a few people in real situations.. I have yet to see this behavior..

It seems to be a new phylosophy with no real basis in fact.
I started diving in the 70's. After a bit of a break I went out with DM buddy with some students to kind of refresh my self in the late 90's. The instructor called me "pizza boy" when I kicked back and flipped up my mask. I did not kick his ass because I was grateful he let me tag along.
I later let him know he was a dick and I was prepared to drop some serious money with somebody to re-outfit myself and take some continuing ed. I took my buisiness elsewhere and made another oufit very happy. I still wish I had kicked his ass though.

Note: I have told my daughter do what feels good, however there are some jerks who might give her a ration if she puts the mask up.

plot
07-30-2007, 21:52
You know... I wear my mask on my forehead all the time and have yet to be saved... some distress signal

:(

thesmoothdome
07-30-2007, 21:52
Again, I really don't worry about where someone wears their mask, but do we really need to wear it on the forehead when we know trained professionals are taught to look for it as a sign of distress? Are we doing it because we're thumbing our nose at the man? Because we can? Because it's the right thing to do?

I understand the rational that since it doesn't prove you're in distress it shouldn't matter, but is there a need to do this since we all know that trained professionals are taught to look for this as a distress signal? Next, are you going to wave to your wife or friend who's still on the boat?

I guess I don't see what the big deal is.

Black-Gorrilla
07-30-2007, 22:00
You know... I wear my mask on my forehead all the time and have yet to be saved... some distress signal

:(


must be working... keep trying.

downunder
07-30-2007, 22:47
Well, with so many people using the argument that the mask will fall off REALLY makes me wonder what idiot came up with this distress call! Put it some place that you can lose it so it won't be there if you need to use it?? Whatever! All I can say is you better do something more than putting your mask up for me to help!

Vercingetorix
07-30-2007, 23:48
I've seen you dive, I'll happily challenge your abilities as a diver. Now where's that suit you posted earlier... :smiley2:OK...that's it...now I'm riled-up.

Dawn. You. Me. Ten paces. Pork rinds.

Vercingetorix
07-30-2007, 23:50
Bro:
I am becoming your biggest fan:smiley20:thank ya, kindly, good sir.

Vercingetorix
07-30-2007, 23:53
Bro:
I am becoming your biggest fan:smiley20:
That will just go to his head.. and then his mask will fall off.:smilie39:Implying I'm a fat-head? (Or, have I inferred this?) Regardless, I've taken umbridge, and will now storm off in a huff. Unless I'm delayed. Then, in a minute and a huff.

Vercingetorix
07-30-2007, 23:56
I alway wonder when "we" had this meeting and all decided that this was a sign of distress. Having rescued a few people in real situations.. I have yet to see this behavior..
Ya know, there've been several postings here whereby the poster stated that the mask on the forehead was a well-known, international, signal decided upon by the diving community-at-large. Fine, let's make it official.

All those in favor of making this a well-known, international signal of distress, raise your right fin and say Aye.

Opposed?

Vercingetorix
07-31-2007, 00:02
Well if you see me on the surface with my mask on my forehead, and have to do a double take. I'll do my best to entertain you.Please don't. I'll be trying to rescue you. They taught us how to handle many situations in NAUI Rescue, such as panicked divers. They did not teach me how to handle an entertaining diver.

Puffer Fish
07-31-2007, 05:44
Again, I really don't worry about where someone wears their mask, but do we really need to wear it on the forehead when we know trained professionals are taught to look for it as a sign of distress? Are we doing it because we're thumbing our nose at the man? Because we can? Because it's the right thing to do?

I understand the rational that since it doesn't prove you're in distress it shouldn't matter, but is there a need to do this since we all know that trained professionals are taught to look for this as a distress signal? Next, are you going to wave to your wife or friend who's still on the boat?

I guess I don't see what the big deal is.
I think you miss the point.. there are no "trained professionals" looking for that. I know I'm not.. I know no one else is...it's a joke...wave your arms and I will rescue you, as I would hope others would. Put your mask on your forehead and all you ever get, if anything is a comment later on the boat...

If you are stupid enough to wear it there on a surf entry... get ready to buy a lot of masks..

Puffer Fish
07-31-2007, 05:49
Well if you see me on the surface with my mask on my forehead, and have to do a double take. I'll do my best to entertain you.Please don't. I'll be trying to rescue you. They taught us how to handle many situations in NAUI Rescue, such as panicked divers. They did not teach me how to handle an entertaining diver.
The entertaining diver is perhaps the trickiest of all to save...you can only get really close between acts or set changes... and then it has to be done in a direction away from the crowd.

Puffer Fish
07-31-2007, 05:49
I alway wonder when "we" had this meeting and all decided that this was a sign of distress. Having rescued a few people in real situations.. I have yet to see this behavior..
Ya know, there've been several postings here whereby the poster stated that the mask on the forehead was a well-known, international, signal decided upon by the diving community-at-large. Fine, let's make it official.

All those in favor of making this a well-known, international signal of distress, raise your right fin and say Aye.

Opposed?
I vote "Nay"

Black-Gorrilla
07-31-2007, 05:56
poll time

creggur
07-31-2007, 07:23
If it's an "international sign of distress" somebody besides us didn't get the word. I lost count how many times divers popped up and put their mask on their forehead on the Sharkweek shows last night. I think they were diving off of South Africa... Somebody better get the word to them!!

Vercingetorix
07-31-2007, 08:03
The entertaining diver is perhaps the trickiest of all to save...you can only get really close between acts or set changes... and then it has to be done in a direction away from the crowd.Thank you. :smiley36:Did you find this in the NAUI or PADI Standards and Procedures? I got NAUI Rescue, and this was not covered. Perhaps, NAUI Advanced Scuba Rescue Diver?

Vercingetorix
07-31-2007, 08:08
Larry or Joe should heartily encourage...yea, DEMAND of their students, that the mask be placed on the forehead. Especially in 2- to 4-foot swells in very deep water. In doing so, ST would receive more emails like the following:


Dear Larry,

Lost my mask and snorkel. Again. Please send Mask # 123456 and Snorkel # 98765 and charge my account.

thank you

Dumbass

BSea
07-31-2007, 09:00
Maybe we should ask the people who are DM's or Instructors just how many people they have saved or assisted that actually put their mask on their forehead. Although I'm not a DM or an instructor, I've actually seen 2 people in distress since I've been diving (I didn't save them). 1 kept his mask on, the other took it off entirely. So something clearly isn't working.

On the other hand, in both cases, there was no doubt the person was in distress, and they were helped ASAP. Now I realise that 2 cases doesn't exactly make this an open & shut case, but I have to agree with others here who say there are much more telling signs as to a person being in distress.

So, my vote is NAY (if anyone is keeping track).

TxHockeyGuy
07-31-2007, 13:26
I've seen you dive, I'll happily challenge your abilities as a diver. Now where's that suit you posted earlier... :smiley2:OK...that's it...now I'm riled-up.

Dawn. You. Me. Ten paces. Pork rinds.

If I'm supposed to meet you at Dawn at least PM me so I get the info in short order. Oh, and where were we supposed to meet? :D

Vercingetorix
07-31-2007, 13:46
I've seen you dive, I'll happily challenge your abilities as a diver. Now where's that suit you posted earlier... :smiley2:OK...that's it...now I'm riled-up.

Dawn. You. Me. Ten paces. Pork rinds.

If I'm supposed to meet you at Dawn at least PM me so I get the info in short order. Oh, and where were we supposed to meet? :DCSSP on top of the airplane. Oh, and I'll be gone through Sunday. So, I beg your indulgence if we might kindly delay our pork rind duel for a few weeks. I apologize for the incovenience. Thank you.

Wolfie2012
07-31-2007, 16:02
You know just the fact that there is such a huge debate and that so many divers do put their masks on their foreheads in normal situations would logically negate any possibility of it being an 'international sign of distress'. Whether it used to be or not is irrelevant.

However, I guess we can't have a real scuba forum without at least one thread on this topic! ;)

Puffer Fish
07-31-2007, 17:02
The entertaining diver is perhaps the trickiest of all to save...you can only get really close between acts or set changes... and then it has to be done in a direction away from the crowd.Thank you. :smiley36:Did you find this in the NAUI or PADI Standards and Procedures? I got NAUI Rescue, and this was not covered. Perhaps, NAUI Advanced Scuba Rescue Diver?
I know it is not in the NAUI standard, but can be added where needed (for california, for example). However, I understand it is PADI speciality card, where you have to at least three of the following:

1. Super Models
2. Mimes
3. Politicians
4. Actors
5. Actors turned politicians

Puffer Fish
07-31-2007, 17:03
You know just the fact that there is such a huge debate and that so many divers do put their masks on their foreheads in normal situations would logically negate any possibility of it being an 'international sign of distress'. Whether it used to be or not is irrelevant.

However, I guess we can't have a real scuba forum without at least one thread on this topic! ;)
That is so true... however.. please note that I was not the one that started it.

Wolfie2012
07-31-2007, 17:09
You know just the fact that there is such a huge debate and that so many divers do put their masks on their foreheads in normal situations would logically negate any possibility of it being an 'international sign of distress'. Whether it used to be or not is irrelevant.

However, I guess we can't have a real scuba forum without at least one thread on this topic! ;)
That is so true... however.. please note that I was not the one that started it.

Can't we blame you anyway? ;)

Black-Gorrilla
07-31-2007, 17:36
no one is really to blame... it's just something that would eventually be brought up... cause it happens so often... surface... get near the boat... float around... then you hear "6 pack" and dammit... (happened to me)
and people question it..... so no one here should say "he did it" cause for the most part... everybody has been corrected for doing this.
i think that it's kind of a crummy distress signal.. cause the first time i put my mask on my forehead... i was at worst... EXTREMELY HAPPY. I mean, i had just come out from my first OW dive, and was ready for the second one.

Puffer Fish
07-31-2007, 17:39
Maybe we should ask the people who are DM's or Instructors just how many people they have saved or assisted that actually put their mask on their forehead. Although I'm not a DM or an instructor, I've actually seen 2 people in distress since I've been diving (I didn't save them). 1 kept his mask on, the other took it off entirely. So something clearly isn't working.

On the other hand, in both cases, there was no doubt the person was in distress, and they were helped ASAP. Now I realise that 2 cases doesn't exactly make this an open & shut case, but I have to agree with others here who say there are much more telling signs as to a person being in distress.

So, my vote is NAY (if anyone is keeping track).
Ask me... over here.. ask me!!!!!!!

Puffer Fish
07-31-2007, 17:46
no one is really to blame... it's just something that would eventually be brought up... cause it happens so often... surface... get near the boat... float around... then you hear "6 pack" and dammit... (happened to me)
and people question it..... so no one here should say "he did it" cause for the most part... everybody has been corrected for doing this.
i think that it's kind of a crummy distress signal.. cause the first time i put my mask on my forehead... i was at worst... EXTREMELY HAPPY. I mean, i had just come out from my first OW dive, and was ready for the second one.
Of course you were happy.. because that is a sign that you are happy...

I've never been corrected for it.. not once, not ever... nor have I ever corrected a student for it.. or seen a diver in distress do it.

I should point out that I have "suggested" to students doing a high surf entry, that... well perhaps it would be a good idea, if they did not do that..Ok I actually yelled at them..but only then.

I also used to teach how to do a 10 meter entry, and I would suggest that is also perhaps not the place to try that.

Oh, and thanks for the comment

Vercingetorix
07-31-2007, 17:51
As the person who started this thread I hereby proclaim that the proper place for the mask is...on the face during entry and exit. Regulator in mouth as well.

There! That resolves it. Next!!

BSea
07-31-2007, 17:53
no one is really to blame... it's just something that would eventually be brought up... cause it happens so often... surface... get near the boat... float around... then you hear "6 pack" and dammit... (happened to me)
and people question it..... so no one here should say "he did it" cause for the most part... everybody has been corrected for doing this.
i think that it's kind of a crummy distress signal.. cause the first time i put my mask on my forehead... i was at worst... EXTREMELY HAPPY. I mean, i had just come out from my first OW dive, and was ready for the second one.
Of course you were happy.. because that is a sign that you are happy...

I've never been corrected for it.. not once, not ever... nor have I ever corrected a student for it.. or seen a diver in distress do it.

I should point out that I have "suggested" to students doing a high surf entry, that... well perhaps it would be a good idea, if they did not do that..Ok I actually yelled at them..but only then.

I also used to teach how to do a 10 meter entry, and I would suggest that is also perhaps not the place to try that.

Oh, and thanks for the comment

You didn't wait for me to ask.:smiley2:

I think the best 1 I saw was someone jump in without fins. But he did have his mask on correctly, and it was in a lake in calm conditions. To be fair, I've jumped in without my gloves before, and it was going to be a dive in deep cold water.

Puffer Fish
07-31-2007, 17:53
As the person who started this thread I hereby proclaim that the proper place for the mask is...on the face during entry and exit. Regulator in mouth as well.

There! That resolves it. Next!!
Not so easy... as someone who has.. what.. 20,000 posts on the issues.. it is not that easy.

BSea
07-31-2007, 17:56
As the person who started this thread I hereby proclaim that the proper place for the mask is...on the face during entry and exit. Regulator in mouth as well.

There! That resolves it. Next!!
Not so easy... as someone who has.. what.. 20,000 posts on the issues.. it is not that easy.

I agree, it's too early to end this. Besides, I think you've got a great shot at winning the monthly prize with this post.

Puffer Fish
07-31-2007, 18:00
no one is really to blame... it's just something that would eventually be brought up... cause it happens so often... surface... get near the boat... float around... then you hear "6 pack" and dammit... (happened to me)
and people question it..... so no one here should say "he did it" cause for the most part... everybody has been corrected for doing this.
i think that it's kind of a crummy distress signal.. cause the first time i put my mask on my forehead... i was at worst... EXTREMELY HAPPY. I mean, i had just come out from my first OW dive, and was ready for the second one.
Of course you were happy.. because that is a sign that you are happy...

I've never been corrected for it.. not once, not ever... nor have I ever corrected a student for it.. or seen a diver in distress do it.

I should point out that I have "suggested" to students doing a high surf entry, that... well perhaps it would be a good idea, if they did not do that..Ok I actually yelled at them..but only then.

I also used to teach how to do a 10 meter entry, and I would suggest that is also perhaps not the place to try that.

Oh, and thanks for the comment

You didn't wait for me to ask.:smiley2:

I think the best 1 I saw was someone jump in without fins. But he did have his mask on correctly, and it was in a lake in calm conditions. To be fair, I've jumped in without my gloves before, and it was going to be a dive in deep cold water.
Sorry. Actually, I've had around 10 rescues and not one had their mask on their forehead. I've seen the mask thrown off... I've see the regulator tossed..yelling - yup. Screaming - sure Frantic arm waving - lots of times. But a nice neat placing of the mask on forehead - never. I've seen paniced divers with their mask around their neck..

Note: I say "around" because some rescues are not from the diver's panic.. never sure where you draw the line.. Leg cramps, for example.. they need help, but they might be perfectly calm.

Puffer Fish
07-31-2007, 18:01
As the person who started this thread I hereby proclaim that the proper place for the mask is...on the face during entry and exit. Regulator in mouth as well.

There! That resolves it. Next!!
Not so easy... as someone who has.. what.. 20,000 posts on the issues.. it is not that easy.

I agree, it's too early to end this. Besides, I think you've got a great shot at winning the monthly prize with this post.


I am such a loser that my suggestion to anyone wanting to win anything is to stay as far away from me as possible.

Black-Gorrilla
07-31-2007, 19:43
I agree, it's too early to end this. Besides, I think you've got a great shot at winning the monthly prize with this post.

i dont know... i read a post about whales and decompression thats pretty good... :smiley2:

techgnostic
07-31-2007, 22:34
I smile, reach down and pull out my knife and start cleaning my blade, and shout back, "Well then sport - you're a rescue diver, why don't you come save me?"

He walked away... I smiled some more.

You rock. He probably regaled his friend with the story of the homicidal maniac who propositioned him for months and months.

dmdoss
08-01-2007, 00:13
Now all we have to do is form the "Divers Coalition". Then come up with a practical "real world" set of guidelines. Guidelines not rules since this would not be a training agency. 1st thing could be "you can wear you mask on your forehead" without fear of someone trying to rescue you. Hate it when my act gets interrupted.

Black-Gorrilla
08-01-2007, 06:06
so... has anyone ever been rescued by mistake? as in... you have your mask on your forehead... next thing you know, you're been rescued?

Puffer Fish
08-01-2007, 06:11
so... has anyone ever been rescued by mistake? as in... you have your mask on your forehead... next thing you know, you're been rescued?
That would be the big "NO".. heck, it is hard to get rescued if there is an issue...

creggur
08-01-2007, 07:59
I don't care, I'm sticking with the mask on backward, proudly displaying the ST logo. It's even easier in my new Brigade, just inflate, lay back, camly fin to the exit point...

Disclaimer: I have done this in a calm spring, not in the open ocean, if conditions warrant keeping my mask on and regulator in I will do so...

Foo2
08-01-2007, 10:10
creggur...you're such a rebel! I'm with you on this one though. ;)

loudgonzo
08-01-2007, 10:12
Rebel divers, sounds like a nifty name for a dive club

Foo2
08-01-2007, 10:42
Sorry gonzo, others have already beat you to it. :(

Splitlip
08-01-2007, 11:05
Now, see...in my opinon, this, should have been the wetsuit worthy thread.

Wolfie2012
08-01-2007, 11:13
Now, see...in my opinon, this, should have been the wetsuit worthy thread.

Well, you could always start the next MOF/NMOF thread and hope for next months prize ;) ... or maybe I shouldn't be encouraging you.

Osprey
08-01-2007, 11:27
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that if someone is in great distress, their first worry would probably be to find someone to help, not adjusting their mask in the hopes someone realizes what they want for them

Skinsfan1311
08-01-2007, 11:43
Waving around my sausage works a whole lot better! It can be seen from more than 20 feet away.


Here in the States, you can get arrested for that type of behavior.....

fire diver
08-01-2007, 11:59
Waving around my sausage works a whole lot better! It can be seen from more than 20 feet away.


Here in the States, you can get arrested for that type of behavior.....

:smiley11: Ugh! I'm eating sushi here dude!

Wolfie2012
08-01-2007, 12:02
Waving around my sausage works a whole lot better! It can be seen from more than 20 feet away.


Here in the States, you can get arrested for that type of behavior.....

Damn my visual imagination and the mental scars I now have due to this thread. :p

dmdoss
08-01-2007, 22:26
All this just for putting my mask up there.

Black-Gorrilla
08-02-2007, 00:53
but thats not a bad thing... if some "international signal for distress" brings up so much as four pages about how bad it is.... i mean... come'on... im not saying it can be changed... but stresed out divers that need help sond just put a mask on their forehead and wait... they flip out, yell (if possible) wave arms around... and also look distressed....
i almost drowend in Brasil about 4-5 years ago... and if i had a mask on... i would have kept it on, and waved my arms around... and yelled... just like i did. (i was sucked out past the wave breaks by the undertow)

CompuDude
08-02-2007, 15:36
I too think it's an awful sign of distress. Waving around my sausage works a whole lot better! It can be seen from more than 20 feet away.
Ok, NOW I'm impressed.

:smiley36:


As the person who started this thread I hereby proclaim that the proper place for the mask is...on the face during entry and exit. Regulator in mouth as well.

There! That resolves it. Next!!

I would add to that list: on the face while underwater.

Topside, I could care less where you have it. MOF, NMOF... if you look distressed, I'm going to look at rescue options. MOF is not really something I pay much attention to, compared to the diver's overall state.

Stating this as a dive professional.

Sadly, AS a dive professional, I don't do MOF, as much as I'd like to, simply because I don't care to be scolded about it. Which is an absurd reason to inconvenience myself, but there you have it.

I wish we could have an actual world-wide poll that carried some weight, however, so we could put the issue to rest once and for all.

Wolfie2012
08-02-2007, 15:39
Sadly, AS a dive professional, I don't do MOF, as much as I'd like to, simply because I don't care to be scolded about it. Which is an absurd reason to inconvenience myself, but there you have it.


Just do it once and take a picture, then carry it around with you whenever you dive so that you can be reminded of your little one-time rebellious act. :smiley2:

CompuDude
08-02-2007, 15:50
Sadly, AS a dive professional, I don't do MOF, as much as I'd like to, simply because I don't care to be scolded about it. Which is an absurd reason to inconvenience myself, but there you have it.


Just do it once and take a picture, then carry it around with you whenever you dive so that you can be reminded of your little one-time rebellious act. :smiley2:
I would, but considering the amount of grief I still get over the snorkel in the photo I used for my old SB avatar, I'll pass. ;)

Splitlip
08-02-2007, 17:08
Sadly, AS a dive professional, I don't do MOF, as much as I'd like to, simply because I don't care to be scolded about it. Which is an absurd reason to inconvenience myself, but there you have it.


Just do it once and take a picture, then carry it around with you whenever you dive so that you can be reminded of your little one-time rebellious act. :smiley2:
I would, but considering the amount of grief I still get over the snorkel in the photo I used for my old SB avatar, I'll pass. ;)

Dude, they gave you infinite S**t for that. Oops, can I say that? I guess not.

CompuDude
08-02-2007, 17:33
I would, but considering the amount of grief I still get over the snorkel in the photo I used for my old SB avatar, I'll pass. ;)
Dude, they gave you infinite S**t for that. Oops, can I say that? I guess not.
Only to my face. ;)

The funniest thing was that that photo was one of the last times I wore a snorkel outside of a class! A year or so later, I finally got a decent shot I could use instead, and finally made time to update the sucker.

May that snorkel rest in peace...

deepdiver47
08-02-2007, 19:38
I'm with you. It feels lousy to have it on your neck not to mention it is more difficult to put back on. I'm about ready to put it on top of my head and tell the world to go away!

Black-Gorrilla
08-02-2007, 19:48
count me in. let the rebellion begin!!

94GTStang
08-03-2007, 00:47
I proudly wear mine on my forehead :)

boat
08-04-2007, 08:53
count me in. let the rebellion begin!!

You guys do know about the "Dork Divers" forum on SB, right?

Vercingetorix
08-05-2007, 21:25
Rebel divers, sounds like a nifty name for a dive club
see Diving Rebels (http://www.divingrebels.org/)

Vercingetorix
08-05-2007, 21:26
Now, see...in my opinon, this, should have been the wetsuit worthy thread.


I agree, it's too early to end this. Besides, I think you've got a great shot at winning the monthly prize with this post.Thank you SplitLip and BSea.
That said, mwhities thread to donate the $50 gift certificates to a worthy cause, is a thread I can support.

Vercingetorix
08-05-2007, 21:28
You guys do know about the "Dork Divers" forum on SB, right?Proud member of Dork Divers Network (http://www.dorkdiver.com)

Black-Gorrilla
08-05-2007, 21:49
Dork Divers is dedicated to diving for fun.
Dork Divers may safely use any type or color of dive gear.
Dork Divers may wear their mask on the forehead.
Dork Divers couldn't care less if your gear cost 10x what theirs did.
Dork Divers like diving in warm tropical seas.
Dork Divers don’t care about your SAC rate.
Dork Divers don’t care about how deep you dive.
Dork Divers don’t care about Trimix.
Dork Divers don't flame posters on ScubaBoard.
Dork Divers respect the boat owner and deck hands.
Dork Divers respect the environment, both above and below.
Dork Divers smile and enjoy the day, even if the dive is called.
thats great right there!!

MEL-DC Diver
08-05-2007, 21:52
As Vercingetorix has basically reached his conclusion at thread #95, I move we move on. The only other topics that receive this much heat are the # of dives PADI requires, BP/W vs BC, anything where DIR is considered to be better or worse, and how much PADI stinks. Talk about beating a dead horse.

And just for the record, I regard the whole mask on the forehead = diver in distress as an urban myth. For anyone to undertake a rescue based solely on that piece of evidence, he would probably be in need of some Xanax and need to calm down. Put it on your forehead, put it around your neck, just don't put it on backwards. That's just silly.

Black-Gorrilla
08-05-2007, 22:18
i(me +2) was out at Cuervo bar today snorkeling(to see if it's worth diving it), and a bunch of people where gathered around floating by a buoy, alot of them with masks on there forehead... there was "ocean rescue" on shore... no one even bothered us (about 75 yards out)

Vercingetorix
06-15-2008, 07:40
It's been awhile. We've added many new members.
Your thoughts about wearing the mask on forehead...

read original post first, before responding

scubasamurai
06-15-2008, 10:18
could care less about it, in fact if you still have your mask on while your in a panic distressed state that is pretty impressive. me i leave it on my face till i leave the water, or clip it onto my bcd with one of those fancey clips i got from ST

Largo
06-15-2008, 11:16
The whole point of keeping the mask on the face, and the regulator in the mouth while in the water, is to ensure that when a swell hits a diver, he does not inhale or swallow seawater, which can result in a really bad time for the diver.

Judge
06-15-2008, 12:12
I wear my secondary on a reg neclace.....how many things can I put around my neck? I am not some on stage performer......

Vercingetorix
06-15-2008, 12:52
I agree with Largo.
I also consider a personal choice for which one accepts responsibility. So, if you get water in the face you get water in the face.

I DO NOT consider a mask on forehead as sign of stressed diver. I've been through Rescue Diver. There are many, more, telling signs to look for.

I normally wear my mask in place or back of head if there is little wave action.

divingchef
06-15-2008, 13:10
I wear mine backwards when not under. Besides not having a nose on the back of my head to hold it on, it's almost as secure as wearing it correctly.

Ron

I do this as well, (wearing it backwards), but NOT putting the mask on your forehead is something i was taught early on, its automatic for me now. When I see it, it looks out out of place. (to me) do what you want, it just doesn't feel right to me.

Largo
06-15-2008, 13:53
I don't understand why people are taking their masks off in the first place?

I am referring to saltwater boat dives here;

How many times have you guys seen a diver surface after a dive, pull off his mask, and throw out his regulator and start talking to the boat crew or buddies, then get hit with a wave? Pretty common, right?

Why not keep that airway protected until we are back on deck?

diver-wife
06-16-2008, 08:54
I don't understand why people are taking their masks off in the first place?

I am referring to saltwater boat dives here;

How many times have you guys seen a diver surface after a dive, pull off his mask, and throw out his regulator and start talking to the boat crew or buddies, then get hit with a wave? Pretty common, right?

Why not keep that airway protected until we are back on deck?
on ocean dives, I agree, I leave it on and reg in my mouth until I am on the boat, personal preference (we are all adults and can make our own decisions). In the quarries, where waves reach a top hight of 6 inches, yes I flip it up to talk.

bassplayer
06-16-2008, 10:45
I too think it's an awful sign of distress. Waving around my sausage works a whole lot better! It can be seen from more than 20 feet away.

hey keep it clean now lol :smilie39:

Martin2
06-16-2008, 10:48
Why not keep that airway protected until we are back on deck?

What does this have to do with the mask? I keep my reg handy on the surface (either in my mouth or in my hand if I need to talk to someone). I don't find this necessary with my mask though. Personally, I don't care for a mask at the surface. It simply irritates me and I take it off my face. This may end up on my forehead or attached to my BC depending on what's going on. I don't find that I need the mask to keep my airway protected. And if I'm happily floating on the surface, mask on forehead, chatting and waiting to get back on the boat, I cannot imagine anyone thinking I'm in distress. If the DM feels differently and wishes to rescue me based on my "sign of distress", I suppose he's more than welcome to do so. Bring down a bottle of water while you're at it though, would you?

Largo
06-17-2008, 10:47
I wanted to wait on replying to this one, because I want to word this correctly.

I don't want to come off as an internet know-it-all, or a smart-alec.

Wearing the mask on the face, and keeping the regulator in the mouth keeps water from entering the nose and the mouth.

A person can be hit with an unexpected swell, or a wake from another boat.

If a person gets water in their airway or lungs, they begin to panic. If water gets in the lungs, they can lose consciousness, and get more water in the lungs.

It's just an internet post, so take it for whatever it's worth.

Martin2
06-17-2008, 13:25
I wanted to wait on replying to this one, because I want to word this correctly.

I don't want to come off as an internet know-it-all, or a smart-alec.

Wearing the mask on the face, and keeping the regulator in the mouth keeps water from entering the nose and the mouth.

A person can be hit with an unexpected swell, or a wake from another boat.

If a person gets water in their airway or lungs, they begin to panic. If water gets in the lungs, they can lose consciousness, and get more water in the lungs.

It's just an internet post, so take it for whatever it's worth.

I certainly didn't mean to insult or offend, though it is possible that the last bit of my post came off a bit more smart a$$ed than I'd intended. I agree wholeheartedly that it is always best to keep your airway clear. I've never had any trouble getting water into my airway through my nose, but I can see how it would be a possibility, especially for someone not as comfortable in the water or overly tired. I think each diver needs to go with what he/she is comfortable with. If that's MOF, I don't see why it would be a huge issue.

mitsuguy
06-17-2008, 14:00
I wanted to wait on replying to this one, because I want to word this correctly.

I don't want to come off as an internet know-it-all, or a smart-alec.

Wearing the mask on the face, and keeping the regulator in the mouth keeps water from entering the nose and the mouth.

A person can be hit with an unexpected swell, or a wake from another boat.

If a person gets water in their airway or lungs, they begin to panic. If water gets in the lungs, they can lose consciousness, and get more water in the lungs.

It's just an internet post, so take it for whatever it's worth.

The thing with that is that for the first 26 years of my life, I never wore a mask... I've free swam in both oceans and the gulf with nothing except a bathing suit on... No snorkel, mask or even goggles... Different people are more comfortable in the water than others... I spend a few minutes every dive with no mask on underwater just as practice... Getting water splashed in my face or even inundated with water doesn't affect me, although everyone is definitely different...

Largo
06-17-2008, 15:00
Like I said, it's just an internet post.

You see, the world don't move to the beat of just one drum. What might be right for you, might not be right some some. It takes different strokes to move the world.

I just thought of that. Came to me out of the blue. Do you like it?

cummings66
06-18-2008, 07:38
Sounds like a tv show.

Vercingetorix
06-18-2008, 08:22
You see, the world don't move to the beat of just one drum. What might be right for you, might not be right some. It takes different strokes to move the world.

I just thought of that. Came to me out of the blue. Do you like it?Sounds like one of them thar hippy things. Get a haircut and a job, ya dirty hippy.:smiley36:

//yes, I'm old. Get off my lawn!

plot
06-18-2008, 16:58
Like I said, it's just an internet post.

You see, the world don't move to the beat of just one drum. What might be right for you, might not be right some some. It takes different strokes to move the world.

I just thought of that. Came to me out of the blue. Do you like it?

whatchu talkin' bout largo?

Eurodiver
06-19-2008, 00:23
... can somone explain why we call fins fins and not flippers I mean yes it does sound juvinile but just curious

I call them flippies.
Just like I call my flip flop shoes flippies.
Don't ask me why, I just do. When my husband and I are diving and I need them I will tell him hand me my Flippies.
Could be that my 38 year old voice sounds like I am 12.
I can tell people that but unless you hear me in person or on the phone you wouldn't believe it.
Can wait to call Joe when I place my order. He will be like right now put your mom on the phone.
:smilie39::smilie39::smilie39:

I put my mask on my head as well. Old habit die hard I guess.

whitworthsa
06-19-2008, 01:28
I wanted to wait on replying to this one, because I want to word this correctly.

I don't want to come off as an internet know-it-all, or a smart-alec.

Wearing the mask on the face, and keeping the regulator in the mouth keeps water from entering the nose and the mouth.

A person can be hit with an unexpected swell, or a wake from another boat.

If a person gets water in their airway or lungs, they begin to panic. If water gets in the lungs, they can lose consciousness, and get more water in the lungs.

It's just an internet post, so take it for whatever it's worth.


This just makes sense and keeping you mask on is probably a good habit to get in to. On the other hand I don't see a problem with taking your mask off if you feel comfortable in the surface conditions (it's easier to see without the waterdrops still stuck on there).

As for the mask on the forehead being a sign of distress, I don't know where or why it started but if it's supported and taught by all or most of the major training agencies then why would you do it knowing full well that someone may end up concerned for your safety? Working for the Coast Guard we must investigate anything that remotely resembles or could be taken as a sign of distress. Many of these turn out to be nothing but now and then they are serious incidents requiring immediate attention. My point is....why "send out" a recognized distress signal when it's just as easy to pull it down around your neck or put it on backward?

mrbheagney
09-06-2008, 00:43
I don't mind seeing qualified divers doing it as long as it is their personal gear. If it is hire gear or the diver is a student I don't allow it simply because I am the monkey who has to swim down and get it when it falls off. From the point or hire gear, if it'S not yours you should respect the wishes of the owner and follow their instruction regarding its use. Customers are always really happy when you hit them with an extra fifty bucks at the end of the day because they lost their hired mask that was on their head "just a second ago".

tonka97
09-06-2008, 08:16
Like sex, politics, and religion, discussing wearing the mask on the forehead is a social conversational taboo. One man, dmdoss, dares to issue the challenge. Let us discuss.
http://forum.scubatoys.com/customavatars/avatar328_2.gif

I see no reason that such an act of rebellion would make a diver a pariah among peers.

Dive Training magazine (Oct 2006) discusses the issue in depth.

Let's get these out of the way:
1. "It indicates a diver in distress". B.S. Does dmdoss looked distressed to you? If he were anymore relaxed, he'd fall asleep. While divers gather on the surface prior to descent, they are not distressed. If they are, they need to abort that dive NOW. Heck, they ought not to have giant-strided off the dive boat. At the conclusion of the dive, as the diver surface-swims towards the exit point or walks on the boat, beach, or dock, the diver is clearly not distressed.

There are other actions in the behaviour cluster other than mask on forehead. Flailing about. Throwing the mask and reg away. Screaming. Splashing on the surface. Pay attention to those signs

2. "There's a better chance of losing the mask if struck by a wave". OK. But this is a personal choice. If I choose to lose my mask this way, then so be it.

3. "We've ALWAYS done it this way. It's the way of NAUI, PADI, SDI, SSI, ABC, XYZ,..." Oh, please...

My opinion FWIW: a diver may wear the mask anywhere he/she chooses. On forehead. Around back. Around neck. Wherever. dmdoss, I applaud you. :smiley32:

Now. Give me a moment while I don my flame-retardant wetsuit.

Flame on.

No flame....you are right!

Thanks for your accurate post.:smiley20:

shovelhead91701
09-06-2008, 08:36
I always use the acronym WWJD to make my choices during a dive.(What Would Jacques Do?) :smilie39::smilie39::smilie39:


I used to watch him flip his mask up all the time on saturday mornings as a kid!

Splitlip
09-06-2008, 10:24
I always use the acronym WWJD to make my choices during a dive.(What Would Jacques Do?) :smilie39::smilie39::smilie39:


I used to watch him flip his mask up all the time on saturday mornings as a kid!

You only have 34 posts, so you are excused this time.

On this board we use "WWCD". (What Would Compudude Do?) In the future, please keep that in mind.:smiley2:

fisheater
09-06-2008, 12:04
I always use the acronym WWJD to make my choices during a dive.(What Would Jacques Do?) :smilie39::smilie39::smilie39:


I used to watch him flip his mask up all the time on saturday mornings as a kid!

You only have 34 posts, so you are excused this time.

On this board we use "WWCD". (What Would Compudude Do?) In the future, please keep that in mind.:smiley2:

Yeah. But there's still value in "What Would Mike Nelson DO?," as it says on my "lucky" t-shirt.

InflationImpossible
09-12-2008, 21:38
I especially like teaching the "no mask on your forehead" thing to students, cause we make them buy us a beer every time they do it. Works a treat! For both sides... :smilie39:

Warren
09-12-2008, 22:29
I seriously doubt that a distressed diver slides the mask up on their forehead in panic...

They rip that sucker off and toss it!

DiverD66
09-21-2008, 14:40
I'm a novis (only 16 dives under my belt), but in my opinion, I could see a distressed diver taking the mask OFF in a panic, not taking the time to pull it to the top of the forehead... Just my novice thinking...

elijahb
09-21-2008, 15:18
It is only one sign of stress.
What would you say if I popped to the surface and spat out my reg?
The reason my instructors said for keep the mask off the forehead are 1 easier to lose it and 2 the light reflects off it like a signal mirror so a aircraft may mistake you as "lost at sea"

Black-Gorrilla
09-21-2008, 16:37
I don't understand why people are taking their masks off in the first place?

I am referring to saltwater boat dives here;

How many times have you guys seen a diver surface after a dive, pull off his mask, and throw out his regulator and start talking to the boat crew or buddies, then get hit with a wave? Pretty common, right?

Why not keep that airway protected until we are back on deck?


well, in the keys we (divers) after a dive end up waiting around the ladder (10+ people) so we take masks and regs off and talk while we wait... i mean... the sea is almost always flat anyways...

i can see conditions where you are better off keeping the gear in place.

thagar
09-23-2008, 16:23
I either put mine on my forehead or on my clip that's if I take it off at all. I don't like it around my neck because it limits my neck movement and it is uncomfortable.

Jenn
09-23-2008, 21:02
I would have to agree 100% with this. I have always rested my mask on my forehead when I have surfaced. Its a hard habit to break especially when I was doing my OW class. Boy did they ride me for that.


My mask has resided comfortably on my forehead since I started snorkeling when I was a kid. I would pop to the surface, shove my mask up and yell towards shore "hey dad, do starfish bite?", pull the mask back down and disappear to chase the fishies. :clap:

beperkins
10-15-2008, 12:13
I agree, a mask on the fore head is something we all do, they should take that out of the manuals and just let every body be comfy.

KGNickl
10-15-2008, 12:44
I either put mine around my neck (which is not comfortable) or I take it off and clip it onto a carabiner that I keep on one of my D-Rings when I'm in the water. If I'm not in the water then I put it on my forehead since its most likely not going to float away or sink on/in the sand/dirt/grass/concrete/etc....

Jack Hammer
10-15-2008, 13:39
Geez, this thread is old and nearly beat to death. So that said...


...Recognizing that a mask on the forhead may be confused or even seen by some as a symbol of me being in some sort of trouble, I try to have the courtesy and respect of not habitually keeping it there. But I'll still put it on my forehead when it's convenient. And I don't feel the least bit bad about doing it.

As for the people who feel the constant need to lecture others and tell them how they should wear they're mask, that's between them and their mental health professionals, I could care less.

Jack:smiley4:

gNats
10-15-2008, 14:06
Although it has been pointed out to me that it is wrong, I wear mine on the forhead also. Like Queen, it is a habit from snorkling that I can't get rid of.

In addition,

1) It's more comfortable up there than around my neck or turned backwards.

2) It takes me forever just to get it somewhat situated around my hair. (I know, sounds like a personal problem to me too). By placing it slightly on my forehead, I reduce the need to take it off completely to reset the headband.

I dunno, it doesn't seem to be a very reliable way to determine if someone is actually in distress or not. If the mask is not on the person's forehead, but they are flailing about and having boyancy problems, should I inquire first if they are in distress, or just assume that they would lift their mask first?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

beperkins
10-17-2008, 11:59
I agree that is a stupid way to signal that you are in trouble. If I actually was in trouble I would want my mask on, that way maybe I could see what the problem was.

Rockhound76
10-17-2008, 15:55
I take mine off and put it back on, but upside down. It's call the "anti-DIR" flip.
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb31/rockhound76/IMG_0352sm.jpg

WaScubaDude
10-17-2008, 16:23
Experienced or not, IMO, if you have to flip your mask to your forhead upon surfacing you need to find a more comfortable mask and/or better defog. Being a good diver is alot about being comfortable in your gear. Overcoming your natural reaction and putting in place safer diving habits.

If you have the agreement to not be MOFH with a buddy and you see his or her MOFH, it is a small signal that something may be wrong. Happened on a long surface swim with my DB, I responded by saying "I need to take a little breather before we decend", she was greatful and said she was feeling "winded" from the swim. Just a little thing, but little things add up to big trouble.

Flame on Rookies!

MSilvia
10-17-2008, 16:32
Experienced or not, IMO, if you have to flip your mask to your forhead upon surfacing you need to find a more comfortable mask and/or better defog. Being a good diver is alot about being comfortable in your gear. Overcoming your natural reaction and putting in place safer diving habits.
IMO, if you "have to" do it it's a problem. If you "like to" or "decide to", it's a preference. I find it easier to replace on my face from my forehead when it isn't reversed, I don't ever have to deal with heavy surf entries, I find keeping the strap in place helps keep me from having to frig around with the face seal on my hood if I put it back on, and I use a long hose and necklace so putting it around my neck isn't an option. I'm totally comfortable with it, and I carry an identical backup mask in my thigh pocket, so it doesn't even approach being an unsafe habit. If you want a safe diving habit, practice evaluating signs of distress properly.

Fogging isn't even part of the equation. If my mask fogs, I clear it. Foreheads have nothing to do with it.

If you see me standing on the beach or doing a leisurely surface swim and believe my mask placement indicates I'm in distress, the problem IMHO is not with me and my gear configuration. It's a sign of distress in the same sense that wearing a team jersey is a sign you may be a professional athlete. You need to consider it in context. As an indicator, it's almost worthless in the absence of other cues.

beperkins
10-18-2008, 07:32
It's a sign of distress in the same sense that wearing a team jersey is a sign you may be a professional athlete. You need to consider it in context. As an indicator, it's almost worthless in the absence of other cues.

Love it Matt!!

shawnwill36
10-25-2008, 06:05
i put mine on my forhead cuz everytime i pull it down around my neck i lose a couple strands of hair. god knows i cant afford to lose any more :)