Help your LDS

[caburrid]

Originally Posted by ScubaToys Larry

Here's a different thought. Each business needs to decide what they want their business model to be. And each customer needs to decide where to spend their money... that's it... easy.

That is the definition of how things should work in a free market society. I love it. Larry, do you teach business classes?

[ReefHound]

Originally Posted by boates

All I'm saying is to try to support your local business. I was in the service industry ( had a hair salon ), and even though I bent over backwards to please clients, they would always look at media specials. Granted, those weren't the clients I wanted. I'm just saying, that, there are alot of small businesses out there trying to please customers. Everyone has a choice........choose wisely

You seem to be rather sour grapes over this?

I'll tell you why I don't like the phrase" support your LDS". To me, it has a negative connotation as if to say "you may do better elsewhere but you should sacrifice your interests and support the shop anyway". It has the air of charity. Look, if the lds has a product and service that I feel offers good value to me, I don't need to be shoehorned into a deal because it's not a sacrifice if it's really in my interests. And I will decide for myself what "added value" is worth.

[DMWiz]

Originally Posted by awap

Evolve or die. Do you feel sorry for the dinosaurs?

I feel pretty bad about Barney, but that's about it.

There are tons of LDS where I live and I drive 80 miles (round trip/ so maybe it's not so local) to go to one of my favorite shops. I dive with them and I assist with their classes. They treat me very well as a matter of fact and I get better than 20% off when I choose to buy there. But they have earned my business. I'm not supporting them.

They also understand that If I can get better pricing anywhere online or elsewhere I will not hesitate to do so, but I do give them the chance to get my order if they carry what I need. If that's what you mean by "supporting" then I agree with you.

I support enough gov. agencies with my hard earned money I'm not adding local stores to that list!

[CalBearister99]

Originally Posted by ScubaToys Larry

Sure, I'll jump into this one... It's been a while since I've gotten to beat on the dead horse!

Ok, first off, I started as a brick and mortar dive shop - and we still are one. We have an indoor pool, hand out about 1000 certs a year, and nearly half our business walks through our front door.

I have heard people say "support your local dive shop" a thousand times... I had another dive shop owner swear at me at the top of his lungs at a local dive show I was exhibiting at because I also had an on line presence. He did an online shop for a while too before he closed. So was it wrong for me to do it when I did?? And his timing made his attempt ok.... and I was Lucky?? He was Unlucky??

Here's a different thought. Each business needs to decide what they want their business model to be. And each customer needs to decide where to spend their money... that's it... easy.

Now to the folks who say you "need to support your LDS" or they won't be there... Here's another take on that...

I had a customer call me up asking if I could service their gear. I remembered the guy as I had talked to him several times when he was trying to decide what to buy. Asked me a ton of questions to get opinions on gear. So here he was on the phone, and admitted to me that he had taken the info I gave him, and went to his LDS who really did not help as much as I did in telling him what to get... they just kept trying to talk him up into stuff that was way more expensive than what he wanted, needed, or could afford.

Anyway, he buys a set of stuff like I told him.. but from the LDS to "support" the LDS. Pays about $500 more than the package I put together for him. And 6 months later.. the shop closes the doors. So now he sends the gear to us for service.

Not all businesses need to be selling on the internet. Heck... I've got another business, Indoor Paintball Field Dallas Paintball Games, Paintball Parties and Indoor Paintball Team Building Facility - GatSplat Lewisville TX my paintball shop. I started out selling on line with that... in fact if you google some products like a Halo V35 you'll see I'm still in the top 3 or 4 in the search engine results - but you will also see when you get there, it says we don't sell on line anymore.

It was just not worth it for me. The margins were not good enough, it was too much hassle, and I just changed my business plan to deal more with local play - working more toward bringing people into the fields to play... birthdays, corporate groups, etc.

But no one ever "supported" my paintball shop - and I never asked them to. Customers would buy their paintball guns on ebay cheaper than I wanted to sell them for - so I stopped selling guns, and switched my model over to more of a customer experience oriented business.

On line training does not train people - they can do book work, but they still have to hit a pool and some open water. Will they get certified at my place or someone elses?? Will they buy their gear from me, or somewhere else??

The main thing that drives that for us is referrals. People telling their dive buddies, and soon to be dive buddies to take a class with us, buy their gear from us. I don't think anyone should "support" my business, or any business out of fear, guilt, or any other negative emotion. I think you support businesses that give you the product, service, selection, customer service after the sale etc, that you feel makes that company a fair value for the prices they charge.

As someone with an economics background, allow me to say BRAVO!

The only possible beef a LDS could have with an online retailer is if a customer went into the LDS, spent hours asking questions, trying on gear, getting advice, etc., and then went over to the online retailer to buy the gear at a discount. In economics, that's called "free riding" - and it tends to destroy customer service.

For that reason, many manufacturers will set minimum resale prices for their goods. The catch? Making it an "agreement" was a per se antitrust violation, so you had all sorts of ways to get around it - unilateral terminations of discounters, "suggested" retail prices, consignments, etc. The Supreme Court fixed that recently, as most economists would tell you that it's more important to have inter-brand competition (Aeris vs. ScubaPro) as opposed to intra-brand competition (Aeris at LDS vs. Aeris at ST). I completely agree with this - if online discounters are destroying customer service by offering discounts, then a manufacturer should have the right to demand that its goods be sold by a full service retailer (the LDS) to ensure that customers get good advice, and that the products are most competitive.

But here's the catch - Scuba Toys gives great service! They have a brick-and-mortar location, which is great. The people there are knowledgable. And if you have questions from beyond North Texas, they're extremely accomodating that way as well. So this is hardly a free-riding problem - in fact, one could argue that Scuba Toys gives better customer service on dive gear than many/most LDS.

So what's the beef that LDS have? Probably that Scuba Toys can get better prices by buying in volume, and offer comparable customer service at a lower retail price. All that tells me is that the optimal size for a store selling dive gear is large, not small. It's just like local book stores crying about Barnes & Noble discounting them out of business. Yet Barnes & Noble employees know all about books, they have a huge selection, and if it's not in stock they'll order it. So it's just better service - end of story.

As for the point about not being able to get air from your LDS if online retailers put them out of business, that sounds like tying to me. Sell air on its own merits - don't sell it as a loss leader to be made up for with high margins on scuba gear. Same thing with instruction - make money on instruction as a stand-alone. And if you don't like the prices at Scuba Toys because they buy in bulk, find opportunities to buy in bulk. The LDS I got certified by did that - even though they were a relatively small shop - and I got a phenomenal deal on great gear from them.

Just about done with my rant now, but I guess the point is, if you want to subsidize your LDS by paying high margins on dive gear, that's your choice. But for LDSs to complain that they can't survive online retail is like the candle-maker bitching out Thomas Edison for putting him out of work. Adopt, evolve, or perish.

[TommyD]

As long as equipment manufacturers keep setting the price of gear, it's the LDS that will suffer. Helping out the LDS or any small business goes both ways. If I can't get my money's worth whether through price or service, I will take my money elsewhere. Sorry, that's how the free market works.

[in_cavediver]

Bravo to larry - he gets buisness and that was an LDS is really.

Now, if this was 'support your local dive club', that would be a different story. If you've read any of my other posts, rants or hallucinations, you see I am very free buisness minded. I owe nothing to anyone but my family as it comes to my purchases. As it turns out, most of my buisness goes to 2 shops, with online and brick and mortar presences. They have earned my buisness with prices, advice (and lack there of) and overall customer service.

My LDS went out and in many ways, we are better for it. They could not compete. Sure, they had air but they couldn't even make that profitable. If you can be profitable, why stay?

[Zenagirl]

My LDS rarely has what I want in stock so I have to wait for them to order it. What is the point in paying more so they can order it for me?? Good grief, I can certainly point and click and get my goods for a better price and much faster from ST or another e-tailer.

[caburrid]

Originally Posted by Zenagirl

My LDS rarely has what I want in stock so I have to wait for them to order it. What is the point in paying more so they can order it for me?? Good grief, I can certainly point and click and get my goods for a better price and much faster from ST or another e-tailer.

Not to mention you likely get a much better (and personal) customer service from this online e-tailer.

[clayton]

In support of both i have made purchases from ST and am very happy,Also my lds which is not actually local as i am in ontario and they in michigan. The are very competitive with priceing on both gear and Training,and service. The owner is a padi instructor with 30 yrs experience and he is the best instructor i have come across so far.These things all help him to earn my business and trust,not some misplaced concept of supporting his business.

[WildBillScuba]

Many of us are lucky enough to have our LDS and online shop be one and the same. ScubaToys is one of my MANY LDS's. Maybe the other LDS's should try joining the 21st century.