Help your LDS

[boates]

they work sooooo hard to make a go of it. They're behind the 8 ball, no wonder they're cranky. Now apparently you can not only get your gear on-line, you can also do diving course on-line, with a referral for open water. Why is this allowed? I feel for them. Don't LDS's have a hard enough time already?

Steps to be a diver

1) go on line for course

2) buy gear on line

3) book vacation on line

4) SCREW your local dive community

Just saying...........

[boates]

Interesting question here would be, Larry/Joe, whats your business % (not $, just a #) of on-line vs walk in (reg customers) store sales? How do you guys feel about on-line certifications?

Now think of the little independent, that is trying to survive.

Won't be long till on-line, (dive clubs?,,,,,,,,forget about it.......... LDS won't be there) is the only option.

[snagel]

Take it from sombody who had their LDS close.....it sucks. Now I can say that it's all about pricing and customer satisfaction. I think most will spend a few extra dollars with the LDS if the pricing is comparable. On-line shops make up margins with volumn.

When my shop was opened it was a place to get AIR. But, it was also a place to get information and chum around with others that dive. You don't get this with on-line shops.

Oddly enough there are multiple posts on this board as well as others offering stories about how a LDS treated somebody wrong. They are out there, but there are many good shops that treat people great as well. You tend to only hear about things when somebody is upset. I demand customer service. If you don't give it, I will spend my money elsewhere and too, if you give me good service, I will tend to spend a little more with those.

Again, take if from me...if you can spend some money with your LDS do so. Not having one is nuts....no air, no information, no place to go when the wife kicks you of the house.

Snagel

[ScubaToys Larry]

Sure, I'll jump into this one... It's been a while since I've gotten to beat on the dead horse!

Ok, first off, I started as a brick and mortar dive shop - and we still are one. We have an indoor pool, hand out about 1000 certs a year, and nearly half our business walks through our front door.

I have heard people say "support your local dive shop" a thousand times... I had another dive shop owner swear at me at the top of his lungs at a local dive show I was exhibiting at because I also had an on line presence. He did an online shop for a while too before he closed. So was it wrong for me to do it when I did?? And his timing made his attempt ok.... and I was Lucky?? He was Unlucky??

Here's a different thought. Each business needs to decide what they want their business model to be. And each customer needs to decide where to spend their money... that's it... easy.

Now to the folks who say you "need to support your LDS" or they won't be there... Here's another take on that...

I had a customer call me up asking if I could service their gear. I remembered the guy as I had talked to him several times when he was trying to decide what to buy. Asked me a ton of questions to get opinions on gear. So here he was on the phone, and admitted to me that he had taken the info I gave him, and went to his LDS who really did not help as much as I did in telling him what to get... they just kept trying to talk him up into stuff that was way more expensive than what he wanted, needed, or could afford.

Anyway, he buys a set of stuff like I told him.. but from the LDS to "support" the LDS. Pays about $500 more than the package I put together for him. And 6 months later.. the shop closes the doors. So now he sends the gear to us for service.

Not all businesses need to be selling on the internet. Heck... I've got another business, Indoor Paintball Field Dallas Paintball Games, Paintball Parties and Indoor Paintball Team Building Facility - GatSplat Lewisville TX my paintball shop. I started out selling on line with that... in fact if you google some products like a Halo V35 you'll see I'm still in the top 3 or 4 in the search engine results - but you will also see when you get there, it says we don't sell on line anymore.

It was just not worth it for me. The margins were not good enough, it was too much hassle, and I just changed my business plan to deal more with local play - working more toward bringing people into the fields to play... birthdays, corporate groups, etc.

But no one ever "supported" my paintball shop - and I never asked them to. Customers would buy their paintball guns on ebay cheaper than I wanted to sell them for - so I stopped selling guns, and switched my model over to more of a customer experience oriented business.

On line training does not train people - they can do book work, but they still have to hit a pool and some open water. Will they get certified at my place or someone elses?? Will they buy their gear from me, or somewhere else??

The main thing that drives that for us is referrals. People telling their dive buddies, and soon to be dive buddies to take a class with us, buy their gear from us. I don't think anyone should "support" my business, or any business out of fear, guilt, or any other negative emotion. I think you support businesses that give you the product, service, selection, customer service after the sale etc, that you feel makes that company a fair value for the prices they charge.

[Smashee]

Originally Posted by boates

1) go on line for course

Or join your local club that has a training program.
Mine does. No shop involved, just high-quality, low-cost, internationally recognised instruction.

2) buy gear on line

Or pay up to three times the price at a LDS for poor service and worse advice.

3) book vacation on line

And have a great holiday with your local club buddies who you've trained with and have been diving with for the last year or so.

4) SCREW your local dive community

Local dive clubs contribute as much, if not more to the local diving community than the majority of shops round here. I find your implication that we don't insulting.

Just saying...........

SCREW apologists for failing business practices that refuse to adapt. Guilt is a poor business plan.

Just saying....

[awap]

Evolve or die. Do you feel sorry for the dinosaurs?

[divingmedic]

Very well put Larry and Smashee. I belong to a local dive club. But it is purely social. To many laws and regulations in the states about training and liability. I have a non diving wife and a jr diving child. My dive shop does not offer family friendly trips. They did one trip a few years ago and I priced it out myself and found I could save $500 per person by booking it myself. Many local shops really need to update their business model and get with the times. The internet is here to stay.

[boates]

All I'm saying is to try to support your local business. I was in the service industry ( had a hair salon ), and even though I bent over backwards to please clients, they would always look at media specials. Granted, those weren't the clients I wanted. I'm just saying, that, there are alot of small businesses out there trying to please customers. Everyone has a choice........choose wisely

[okieguy]

I see the dilemma here and honestly don’t have a clear opinion but will share my thoughts. Pardon the rambling – maybe by the end I will have a clear opinion…

As an adult learner with a busy schedule and traveling a lot for work, e-learning is a great plus. It’s hard for me to commit to set days and hours to be in a class. Look at the online universities out there catering to my generation.

Personally I think OW needs to be an in-class, personal training. You just can’t learn and practice skills online. I also think this is a good place for networking with other area divers and you can’t get that online except in a forum like this.

I think if the training agencies could provide the materials and some tutorials online so students can prep for their class held at the LDS, I think it would be a huge advantage. Just imagine how much “in class” time could be saved by a good dive table tutorial ( I think Larry and Joe have one, but they aren’t an agency) – anyone remember beating their head on the wall when one person in the class just “didn’t get it”? If a student still doesn’t understand it after the tutorial then they could set some time aside individually with the instructor for some one on one time. It’s just one example of something that could work better and more efficiently. In essence make this a blended activity of online and in person learning and everyone would benefit. The LDS would still have classes in a streamlined manner, they could even access students enrolled online through the training agency to monitor their progress. What I have seen is that the online class costs almost as much as the in person class but without the personal instruction. If the training agencies would cut that cost down or share the total cost with the LDS and have them involved everyone could be happy(er). Maybe they do this, I don't know for sure.

Online training is here, it’s up to everyone involved to make it work the best way possible.

In short, I agree that the LDS should be supported anywhere they can as long as they are providing the service needed, not just because they are a LDS. I also think the training agencies could do a better job of including the LDS in the process instead of cutting them out when it comes to e-learning.

So there is my 2 cents worth, you get what you pay for there…

[Tassie Diver]

A (local dive) store with good service supplying the needs and wants of their customers will survive and prosper. Isn't that Basic Business 101?

I'm buying equipment on line (from ST and others) for less than the wholesale price of the same goods in Australia. I can't buy gas fills, training or boat trips on line, but my LDS gets all that business BECAUSE THEY MEET MY NEEDS.