Safety concerns question

[clayhabitat]

I know of a situation that happened and I know that I am concerned about what happened. However, because I have only been diving a couple years, and the question regards an instructors behavior, I would like some feedback and suggestions.

I know of a young woman who took the Open Water training. On the second day of the the dives (dives 3 & 4) she used 2500 lbs of air leaving her with 500 lbs of air. The instructor encouraged the class to then complete a fifth dive without changing tanks. This dive was a move from one set of training platforms to another across the body of water. During this dive, the young woman dropped to 130 lbs of air in her tank and the instructor (her buddy during the second day of dives) offered her his secondary regulator. They then continued the dive until they reached the other platform location before surfacing. To me, it seems that he put her in unnecessary danger by 1) beginning a dive with only 500 lbs of air, and 2) not ascending after she started using his secondary. Am I overreacting, or should I be concerned? If I have valid concerns, what should I do? This instructor is a patient instructor who works through the material fully usually. Please help! Thank you.

[TJDiver]

Kinda hard to pound into a student's head the need to return with 500 psi, when the instructor violates that rule during training. I'm sure the instructor figured he was in a controlled environment so what's the harm, but my opinion is that you train by example. What happens now when that student is out in the wild, and remembers that bad example set by the instructor when it comes to a real life decision to be made? IMHO, it was a bad decision and example by that instructor.

[fisheater]

Bad juju.

This should be reported to the instructor's shop (if any) and to the certifying agency.

Beginning a dive with inadequate air is a standards violation and just plain stupid, especially in a teaching environment.

[scubadiver888]

There are two issues here. The first is whether the instructor is violating the legal requirements. The second is whether he is a questionable instructor.

For the first issue, if he is a PADI instructor, you can submit a complaint to PADI. Read the Quality Assurance page for link to how to submit a complaint.

Generally speaking, one complaint won't mean much. There will have to be a number of complaints for PADI to take it seriously. I am sure there are people who are just bitter and file unfounded complaints. There is no easy way to separate out legitimate complaints and unfounded complaints. Filing a complaint might result in PADI sending out surveys to the instructor's students to see if they have any complaints. Don't expect visible, immediate actions based on your complaint. It might be filed and combined with later complaints.

I was taught that you share air with your buddy when you are in a low air situation. Once you share air, you head for the surface at a safe ascent rate. The whole idea of sharing air with a buddy and continuing to swimming goes against what I was taught. Is this a requirement for PADI? Or was this just added information my instructor gave me? Don't know.

Note: there is one exception to not immediately going to the surface. If a safety stop is necessary then surfacing immediately would not be a safe ascent rate.

Going down with only 500 PSI in a cylinder, especially for a Open Water student is just wrong, in my opinion. I don't think there is any good explanation for this. I'm currently going for my DM and from the standard that I am expected to set, this is just wrong. I am expected to do all the exercises a student will be taught, perfectly. Entering the water with only 500 PSI just does not make sense.

If the instructor hasn't violated any legal requirement from the parent agency there is still the question of whether or not they are a good instructor. I would talk to them about whether or not they felt they were setting a bad example. Dependant on how that conversation went, I would probably not recommend that instructor to others and might even advise people to avoid the shop.

Additionally, are they an owner of the dive shop? If they are not the owner, you might want to talk to the owner about it. The owner should be given an opportunity to address the situation as well. Just like if I have problem with an employee at a large corporation, I will call their manager or someone in the company. I.e. if you don't get a satisfactory response from the instructor, go over his head.

On the other hand, is this an isolated incident? For the most part is he a good instructor? If you complain, what will you be losing? Is this the only good dive shop in your area?

[Desert_Diver]

I agree that encouraging a new (trainee) diver to violate the 500 psi rule is a bad idea. Another issue here (a mistake I made as a new diver) is allowing someone "more experienced" than myself, talking me into doing something stupid underwater. We were diving Catalina. We found the wreck that was our objective. After cruising the wreck, I was at about one half tank (1500 psi) and signalled my buddy "half time". He pointed in a direction away from the Casino stairs. I was suprised becase I expected him to point to the shore. But then I figured he has more experience than I did and he knew of something close that was interesting. I went with him. Skip a lot of detail. I was down to 500 psi and signalled "up". He nodded and we surfaced after a safety stop. We were out in the middle of nowhere and well outside the boundary of the dive park. It turns out after a LONG surface swim that I found out that he can't read a compass. And he only had a few more dives than I did.

Moral: you and you alone are responsible for your underwater welfare. It's up to you follow those rules you deem important. It takes a while for new divers to realize that they might not be diving with a rocket science caliber buddy.

I don't think this point is emphasized enough with new divers.

Art

[comet24]

I think some instructors do thing they see as being OK because they are they. The problem is it's not safe. If another diver had an issue and one student is stuck on the instructors Octo there are problems.

Instructors should teach good habits. Students pay attention to what instructors do. When they do unsafe things students may think is OK. Very bad form if you ask me.

[clayhabitat]

Art, I agree that a diver is responsible for their own safety. My problem is that this was the instructor and the 4th OW training dive ended less than 15 min before the dive with 500 psi and at the encouragement of the instructor, and that instructor as the dive buddy. New divers still have this AWE of their instructors that tends to overshadow a responsibility for self safety.

[clayhabitat]

I really appreciate all the thoughts I am getting, and hope I get more input. I just really gave me an uneasy feeling. This new diver is a very good friend of mine and I don't want anything to happen to her because of stupidity. I was not diving that day because of ear issues unfortunately.

[scubadiver888]

Originally Posted by clayhabitat

Art, I agree that a diver is responsible for their own safety. My problem is that this was the instructor and the 4th OW training dive ended less than 15 min before the dive with 500 psi and at the encouragement of the instructor, and that instructor as the dive buddy. New divers still have this AWE of their instructors that tends to overshadow a responsibility for self safety.

I understand what you are saying. Just after getting certified I went to Cuba. The dive group consisted of a bunch of Navy divers, the DM and me. I let the DM know this was my first dive without my instructor and she knew I was Open Water certified (had to show my c-card). The DM took us out to a military ship wreck. It was in 31m (101') of water (she didn't tell me this). I was JUST certified of OW. Being new and diving to 31m I quickly ran out of air. When I got to half tank I tried to get the DM's attention. By the time I got her attention I was down to 40 bar. She gave me her octo and continued with the dive.

I was naive enough to believe she wouldn't put me in any danger. I didn't know how to signal I was not comfortable with this and I doubt she'd end the dive even if I could. Looking back on it, she was willing to push MY limits so the Navy divers would have a nice dive.

The instructor you are talking about doesn't sound like he is this bad but he is still setting a bad example. Maybe he doesn't even realize how it looks from a student's perspective.

[TJDiver]

Originally Posted by scubadiver888

I understand what you are saying. Just after getting certified I went to Cuba. The dive group consisted of a bunch of Navy divers, the DM and me. I let the DM know this was my first dive without my instructor and she knew I was Open Water certified (had to show my c-card). The DM took us out to a military ship wreck. It was in 31m (101') of water (she didn't tell me this). I was JUST certified of OW. Being new and diving to 31m I quickly ran out of air. When I got to half tank I tried to get the DM's attention. By the time I got her attention I was down to 40 bar. She gave me her octo and continued with the dive.

I was naive enough to believe she wouldn't put me in any danger. I didn't know how to signal I was not comfortable with this and I doubt she'd end the dive even if I could. Looking back on it, she was willing to push MY limits so the Navy divers would have a nice dive.

The instructor you are talking about doesn't sound like he is this bad but he is still setting a bad example. Maybe he doesn't even realize how it looks from a student's perspective.

Once again...proof the cert doesn't always mean anything. It amazes me someone can make it to DM level, and either not learn any better than that, or not care anymore than that. I hope you gave her operator some grief when you got back to shore?