View of "deep" and "scary" changing over time?

[mitsuguy]

Originally Posted by JahJahwarrior

One huge difference between the class and when we dive: I'll obey the thumb. In classes, I've noticed instructors try to keep students from going ot the surface. I see the point of this:it's a hassle having a student or two give the thumb in the middle of a lesson. But, I think it stresses students to know that they will be scolded for going to the surface if they feel uncomfortable. Personally, my overhead training has me dedicated to turning a dive whenever there is a thumb. So, if she feels uncomfortable, she knows she can turn the dive and I won't give her any grief about it.

I felt really bad about how uncomfortable she seemed in some of the class. Once she managed the drills and was just swimming around for the last dive, she seemed to be having a blast though, huge smile on her face. I'm confident she'll come around. I don't expect her to follow in my footsteps, I just want her to feel comfortable in normal, OW diving situations, so her dreams of seeing turtles and whalesharks can come true, and she will be able to enjoy the moment to the fullest.

Her weighting is not perfect, but we'll work on that. I've found in OW classes, I prefer myself to be overweighted. If I'm neutral, staying on my knees to do drills with students is hard. I think she could lose a few pounds on the belt, but that is one of those things I can't fix until I'm in the water with her. I gave it a lot of thought and tried to get her close enough to properly weighted that she would sink without difficulty, but not be significantly overweighted.

My friend, you have a long ways to go to become an instructor... Definitely spend some more time (much more) with experienced instructors... Firstly, I would recommend going with a completely recreational rig, something that mimics exactly what the instructor has - sure, a tech style rig may have its benefits, but, at the same time, a completely rec rig has some simplicities built into it that tend to make things easier, especially for a new student - adjustable shoulder straps, lack of crotch strap, etc... (quick note about the crotch strap - I do not use one with my BP/W and my rig does not ride up) Get her a standard jacket style BCD and standard length hoses, at least to start - you might see this make her a lot more comfortable...

Also, during training, typically, the only reason people want to thumb a dive is because they are uncomfortable, or are getting anxious. I highly recommend keeping them underwater - the surface is a last resort. A huge part of my job is doing discover scuba's. With this, I get a large number of people that are very nervous - even with video, briefing, skill demonstration and underwater practice, the whole thing is only about 2.5 hours... I'll give you one example just off top of my head - customer had never been diving, but was on vacation with a friend who was a diver. They wanted to go out, so, we did a DSD for the non-certified diver, and the certified diver tagged along... I could tell the DSD'er was nervous, but he did all the skills with ease and seemed ok. Alright, we go out on the dive, nice sloping area, down to about 25 feet. He had some ear issues - forgot to clear or what not, and this added stress. I see him panicking inside a little, he signals somethings wrong, but doesn't state what. I grab his BCD and by this time he is trying to swim to the surface, and looking straight up (a dead giveaway). I vented the air in my BCD, had him look straight at me, asked him if his ears were OK, to which he responded no, we ascended a few feet, he cleared them, and by this time, he had calmed down. He looked at me, signaled he was OK, and we continued the dive - from that point on, he looked like a pro in the water...

We end the dive when they run low on air, come up close to shore, and he is sooo amazed at everything he saw. After getting back to the shop, he handed me a huge tip and said thank you. I said, "why? you did great..." He said that he was panicking, and me holding him down and calming him was the best thing that ever could have happened to him. He came back three more times to do more shore tours (under the return DSD program). He is hooked now.

What I ask myself, is, if I had allowed him to go to the surface, would he have ever gone back down??? I have seen it before - panic, then refusal to ever even think about trying it again. As divers, we should be able to fix just about any problem underwater, short of a gauge failure or loss of air.

[mrmccoy]

I'm a new diver and during my class I had a few moments of panic. I stopped and took a deep breath then told myself to chill out......then I was fine and had a blast! I knew what was happening and knew I was fine. Every dive after that has been great!

[Splitlip]

....

[fisheater]

Originally Posted by mrmccoy

I'm a new diver and during my class I had a few moments of panic. I stopped and took a deep breath then told myself to chill out......then I was fine and had a blast! I knew what was happening and knew I was fine. Every dive after that has been great!

That's great. In fact, you'll be a better diver than those who've never had any underwater issues.

The next time (and there will be, if you advance in diving) you feel that anxiety building, you'll have the confidence that you KNOW how to handle it. Congrats.

[navyhmc]

Originally Posted by Splitlip

....

I hope you brought enough popcorn for all of us Tim.

To the OP, everyone's comfort level is different. As for deep, a lot of folks don't know how deep, deep is. We have a local high rise (well, high for doo-dah, KS.) that is 10 stories. Go to the 10 story and look down. That is a significant distance, and it's 100'. Perspective is a big part of it. At 120' in darker waters, my world is only a maybe 20' sphere. What's beyond it is only a concern when I get there. For some, put them at 120' in clear waters where that 90' long dive boat looks like a bath toy and it can really get to them. All in perspective.

I agree with expanding folks comfort zone, but do so comfortably. Don't rush them.

And don't forget, "Familiarity Breeds Contempt" that is if you are at 120', don't get soo comfortable that you don't keep your safety measures with you and your safety procedures in the forefront. i.e. just because you've made 100 dives to 120' and never needed your alternate gas, doesn't mean you won't need it on THIS dive.

[Lulubelle]

Perhaps some additional pool time for skills practice will give her more confidence before going out to the OW again.

I can remember during my OW getting a bit spooked by the mask clearing in the pool. I can't open my eyes under water and was a bit underweighted. So as I closed my eyes and removed my mask, I starting floating sideways. Didn't dig that, it was somehow scary. The instructor beat that skill to death. Of course, on my first OW dive, my crappy rental mask flooded about 10 times, but I was fine with it as I had practiced it to death.

My first dive out of OW was to 128 feet, that is what we do here. I was completely prepared and comfortable. So deep and scary didn't correlate for me.

I guess my point is to find out what it is that she is really uncomfortable with and practice that. If it IS depth, then let her tell you when she wants to push it a little bit more. I think it is great that she is trying it, even if she is doing it for you. I suspect she will love it for herself once she gains confidence.

[JahJahwarrior]

Originally Posted by mitsuguy

My friend, you have a long ways to go to become an instructor... Definitely spend some more time (much more) with experienced instructors... Firstly, I would recommend going with a completely recreational rig, something that mimics exactly what the instructor has - sure, a tech style rig may have its benefits, but, at the same time, a completely rec rig has some simplicities built into it that tend to make things easier, especially for a new student - adjustable shoulder straps, lack of crotch strap, etc... (quick note about the crotch strap - I do not use one with my BP/W and my rig does not ride up) Get her a standard jacket style BCD and standard length hoses, at least to start - you might see this make her a lot more comfortable...

Thanks for the insult, Mitsu, much appreciated.

Poorly fitting recreational rigs are going to be more difficult than a properly setup BP/W. I had her rig set up very nicely, and I feel that it should have made her more comfortable. It is my opinion that a backplate and wing is the most comfortable way to dive. Almost everyone I have talked to who currently dives a backplate and wing said they really wished they could have started with one from day 1, including myself. And, the rig can ride up at the surface with the wing fully inflated, without a crotch strap, unless the student is somehow floaty without the rig on. I will not get her a jacket style BC, which I consider to be difficult to dive in, and she has standard length hoses. Well, the HP hose isn't DIR, but all other lengths are within an inch of DIR standards.

As it goes to the thumbing, I understand what you are saying, and I would actually apply more discretion if I was teaching a class. When someone gave me the thumb, I would grab them, look them in the eyes, try to help them deal with problems. Then, I would ask if they were ok, and if they wanted to stay down. If they still want to go to the surface, I would most likely let them. I feel that ignoring one of the most important rules in diving during a class isn't the best role model, though I do agree that many times divers will realize they are happier underwater. Mostly, I was frustrated because even when she was extremely calm and wanted to pop to the surface because she was having issues with some stuff and she felt like asking a few questions could have solved her issues quickly, instructors ignored the thumb. I feel like there needs to be some leeway, not a hard and fast "we ignore the thumb in class" rule.

[mitsuguy]

Originally Posted by JahJahwarrior

Thanks for the insult, Mitsu, much appreciated.

Poorly fitting recreational rigs are going to be more difficult than a properly setup BP/W. I had her rig set up very nicely, and I feel that it should have made her more comfortable. It is my opinion that a backplate and wing is the most comfortable way to dive. Almost everyone I have talked to who currently dives a backplate and wing said they really wished they could have started with one from day 1, including myself. And, the rig can ride up at the surface with the wing fully inflated, without a crotch strap, unless the student is somehow floaty without the rig on. I will not get her a jacket style BC, which I consider to be difficult to dive in, and she has standard length hoses. Well, the HP hose isn't DIR, but all other lengths are within an inch of DIR standards.

As it goes to the thumbing, I understand what you are saying, and I would actually apply more discretion if I was teaching a class. When someone gave me the thumb, I would grab them, look them in the eyes, try to help them deal with problems. Then, I would ask if they were ok, and if they wanted to stay down. If they still want to go to the surface, I would most likely let them. I feel that ignoring one of the most important rules in diving during a class isn't the best role model, though I do agree that many times divers will realize they are happier underwater. Mostly, I was frustrated because even when she was extremely calm and wanted to pop to the surface because she was having issues with some stuff and she felt like asking a few questions could have solved her issues quickly, instructors ignored the thumb. I feel like there needs to be some leeway, not a hard and fast "we ignore the thumb in class" rule.

It was not meant as an insult... Get more experience, nothing wrong with that - there is not one single person on the board that can't benefit from more experience.

It is your opinion, that a bp/w is the most comfortable way to dive. I am here to tell you that opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one. I have a BP/W and also a standard BCD... I also, every once in a while, use our rental BC's... To be honest, I actually think there is less though required in our rental BC's and they instantly make everyone comfortable... Not that a BP/W is not comfortable, I love mine, however, I truly believe there is a little more comfort zone needed before moving to a bp/w setup... When I say standard length hoses, I mean, standard as in what comes with the regulator standard. Not standard as in, a very small select group of people who think their way is correct (I'm not saying it isn't, but, to each their own)

One thing, if you listen to nothing else I ever say, that you should probably take heed. Don't try and teach a significant other anything. Don't be involved in the learning process. Don't try to impose your way either. These are all sure fire ways for making someone angry or mad and rejecting their training. I see it all the time. I've actually had to make certified divers sit out of training sessions with their significant others, because they felt pressured, annoyed, etc. and sometimes, people just reject learning from someone they are that familiar with. In certain circumstances, even trying to teach family is a bad idea.

So, we all say, thumb a dive for any reason at any time. What if your buddy had some water in their mask and wanted to thumb the dive? Sure, we say, any reason, any time. But don't you think that is a problem that is definitely manageable underwater? What if their reg came out of their mouth - thumb the dive then, or fix the problem? You have to build a certain resistance to surfacing with new students, else they tend to want to come to the surface any time they have any sort of issue or question.

One last thing - let her make decisions for herself, else this will not end well for you and your relationship, or her and diving...

[CompuDude]

Originally Posted by JahJahwarrior

Poorly fitting recreational rigs are going to be more difficult than a properly setup BP/W. I had her rig set up very nicely, and I feel that it should have made her more comfortable. It is my opinion that a backplate and wing is the most comfortable way to dive. Almost everyone I have talked to who currently dives a backplate and wing said they really wished they could have started with one from day 1, including myself. And, the rig can ride up at the surface with the wing fully inflated, without a crotch strap, unless the student is somehow floaty without the rig on. I will not get her a jacket style BC, which I consider to be difficult to dive in, and she has standard length hoses. Well, the HP hose isn't DIR, but all other lengths are within an inch of DIR standards.

I agree with you re bp/w being the most comfortable, as long as it is fit properly. That said, appearances aside, they're not the most simple. There is a simplicity to a jacket BC, in spite of the extra buckles and junk all over it.

My wife just got certified in a bp/w. She had some problems with it, and the constant stream of put-downs from the PADI instructor didn't help. After certification (which was a close thing, IMO), I had her take a buoyancy workshop from another instructor... one who is one signature away from becoming a GUE fundies instructor. She is now absolutely thrilled with her bp/w, and completely understands and agrees with my reasons for putting her in one in the first place. The fact that a bp/w makes certain PADI OW class gear skills a little tricky has little bearing on real world diving.

As for hoses, it's up to you, of course, but I'll make a recommendation: I set my wife up with a "short long hose" rig. George Irvine actually used to dive nearly the same rig in OW, reasoning that single-file hose lengths aren't really required for OW diving. (They have since moved to a standardized 7' hose recommendation, but I figured, correctly, that the shorter hose would be easier for her to deal with while learning.) The rig is identical to a pure DIR singles rig, but instead of a 7' hose, you use a 40" hose for the primary. (Secondary, HP, LP, etc are all otherwise standard DIR fare) The primary hose routes under the right arm and directly up to the mouth, and does not cross the chest. I use a 90 degree elbow (not a swivel) to ease routing. Works beautifully.

(Again, the PADI instructor complained bitterly about it, but was perfectly happy with the students using nearly-impossible-to-breathe-through $70 Aqualung Octos, and also happy with donating the primary for the guy with an Air2, so WTF?)

[wheelman]

Originally Posted by CompuDude

I agree with you re bp/w being the most comfortable, as long as it is fit properly. That said, appearances aside, they're not the most simple. There is a simplicity to a jacket BC, in spite of the extra buckles and junk all over it.

My wife just got certified in a bp/w. She had some problems with it, and the constant stream of put-downs from the PADI instructor didn't help. After certification (which was a close thing, IMO), I had her take a buoyancy workshop from another instructor... one who is one signature away from becoming a GUE fundies instructor. She is now absolutely thrilled with her bp/w, and completely understands and agrees with my reasons for putting her in one in the first place. The fact that a bp/w makes certain PADI OW class gear skills a little tricky has little bearing on real world diving.

As for hoses, it's up to you, of course, but I'll make a recommendation: I set my wife up with a "short long hose" rig. George Irvine actually used to dive nearly the same rig in OW, reasoning that single-file hose lengths aren't really required for OW diving. (They have since moved to a standardized 7' hose recommendation, but I figured, correctly, that the shorter hose would be easier for her to deal with while learning.) The rig is identical to a pure DIR singles rig, but instead of a 7' hose, you use a 40" hose for the primary. (Secondary, HP, LP, etc are all otherwise standard DIR fare) The primary hose routes under the right arm and directly up to the mouth, and does not cross the chest. I use a 90 degree elbow (not a swivel) to ease routing. Works beautifully.

(Again, the PADI instructor complained bitterly about it, but was perfectly happy with the students using nearly-impossible-to-breathe-through $70 Aqualung Octos, and also happy with donating the primary for the guy with an Air2, so WTF?)

The 'short' long hose is a nice config and what I use as well. (including elbow) only diff is I use 48" hose for a little extra play for the dry suit.