View of "deep" and "scary" changing over time?

[mitsuguy]

Originally Posted by wheelman

The 'short' long hose is a nice config and what I use as well. (including elbow) only diff is I use 48" hose for a little extra play for the dry suit.

and this may shock many, but I also use a 40" hose with a 90 on it, even for teaching - I do, however, still have a standard length octo though- skills, again, skills, are necessary to have the norm...

[JahJahwarrior]

Regulators don't come with hoses, in my experience. Some shops might add them on, but ideally, you go in and pick and choose everything yourself. Everyone's idea of "standard" is different.

I fail to see what is wrong with me trying to help her learn stuff. I suppose it could cause fights if I was emotionally invested in it, but if she is uncomfortable or doesn't want to learn something, it won't be any skin off my back. I plan to dive with her, and I plan to role model the proper, safe way to dive enjoyably.

Her BP/W was properly setup and was much less confusing than a BC. She had a tiny bit of trouble getting into it, but she had the same problem getting into a BC, and I think there aren't many people who figure out how to get into a scuba rig effortlessly their first time: just about every student I've ever watched has taken a bit of time to figure out where the straps fall and how to get into them easily. I fail to see how a properly fitting BP/W is any more complex than a BC. The only difficult part is the crotch strap, but that doesn't take very long to get used to, and if a user cannot reconnect it underwater their first try, the rig still works just fine.

An instructor who had experience with this setup could have done a much better job of teaching her. I love her instructor, he's a real nice guy and I think he handles students very well. I wouldn't trust her safety to just anybody, and I think he taught a good class. But, he's never used a BP/W or a "long hose" setup, and I think his constant stream of complaints about the system did not help her feel like she could manage it. I think instructors should be required to have experience with more diving equipment so they are better able to handle students who use gear different from them.

It is a fine line, regarding the thumbing a dive thing. Students should not be passed if they cannot deal with problems underwater, but honestly I've turned dives because of mask flooding. I couldn't get it to stop leaking, so 10 minutes in and halfway through running the primary reel, I called the dive. I think instructors need to spend more time teaching their students, this internet training is great but when I had to sit with my instructor, he was able to go over much more of those sorts of things and calm me down before the dive, so I understand I could deal with problems underwater and could make the rational decision to deal with it rather than thumb the dive. I feel that cert classes are way too rushed nowadays, but dive centers do it because it yields them more profit.

[mitsuguy]

Originally Posted by JahJahwarrior

Regulators don't come with hoses, in my experience. Some shops might add them on, but ideally, you go in and pick and choose everything yourself. Everyone's idea of "standard" is different.

Aside from the Salvo's and two or three Zeagles, every reg that Scubatoys sells comes with a hose from the manufacturer... Many regs even now come with Miflex hoses, from the manufacturer, and use them as a selling point...

As far as everything else, you are entitled to your opinion.

Please be warned that the number 1 reason one person of a couple drops out of scuba diving is from unnecessary pressure from the significant other. You may think "oh well, if she gets mad at me, no skin off my back" but what you are failing to acknowledge is that many women do not like being taught things by their SO, and they will put up with it, to a point... If yours is completely open to it, then so be it, but many women I have dealt with feel that they are a lesser person if they allow their SO to teach and train them, thus putting them at a lesser ranking in the relationship... It happens man, be careful with it...

one last thing, dive shops, although the benefit from the money aspect of quick courses and such, most quick courses are driven by the consumer and their lack of time... We give people the option all the time to do a slower version of our course, for 1/3 LESS money... many still pick the more expensive version because of time constraints...

[CompuDude]

Originally Posted by JahJahwarrior

Regulators don't come with hoses, in my experience. Some shops might add them on, but ideally, you go in and pick and choose everything yourself. Everyone's idea of "standard" is different.

Yes, they do when you buy a paired first and second stage. My ScubaPro MK25/S600 came with a hose, as did my Atomic M1, as did my Atomic Z2.

If you buy individual pieces, then no hoses (usually, but sometimes even then), but the matched pairs almost always come with a standard length hose, and you generally get a small discount compared to separates as well.

[CompuDude]

Originally Posted by JahJahwarrior

I fail to see what is wrong with me trying to help her learn stuff. I suppose it could cause fights if I was emotionally invested in it, but if she is uncomfortable or doesn't want to learn something, it won't be any skin off my back. I plan to dive with her, and I plan to role model the proper, safe way to dive enjoyably.

All good goals, but I can tell you from experience that IF you're in the water with her during class, do your best to stay out of it. Feel free to correct misinformation (intentional or otherwise) from the instructor (later, in private, don't undermine him during class), but don't put yourself in the teaching position while she's still getting used to scuba. Stay out of it as much as possible, and your relationship will be better for it. Relationships bring way too much baggage, even good ones. Pretty much any instructor (or DM, in my case) will tell you it's best to not get overly involved with your SO's training.

Originally Posted by JahJahwarrior

Her BP/W was properly setup and was much less confusing than a BC. She had a tiny bit of trouble getting into it, but she had the same problem getting into a BC, and I think there aren't many people who figure out how to get into a scuba rig effortlessly their first time: just about every student I've ever watched has taken a bit of time to figure out where the straps fall and how to get into them easily. I fail to see how a properly fitting BP/W is any more complex than a BC. The only difficult part is the crotch strap, but that doesn't take very long to get used to, and if a user cannot reconnect it underwater their first try, the rig still works just fine.

It's simple to us, but not so much to a new student. It's a crazy-looking mess of straps. The reality is yes, it's simpler, having just one buckle instead of lots of buckles, but in spite of this, they DO come off a little more complex than "putting on a jacket" and tightening straps that look just like backpack and seatbelt straps that people have been working with for many, many years, and are not scary at all. Standard fastex buckles found on recreational BCs just aren't new and unusual, and neither is the act of putting on a vest. It's a subtle psychological difference, but trust me, it DOES exist. You can overcome it, but the fact remains that a bp/w IS a little more intimidating looking than a jacket BC.

I say this as a strong proponent of bp/w's, and as someone who just put his own wife in a bp/w for class. It CAN be done, but realize that there ARE some drawbacks and minor things to overcome, compared to the classic setup that the rest of the class (and the instructor) will likely be using. (And that subtle peer pressure can be a problem as well.)

Originally Posted by JahJahwarrior

An instructor who had experience with this setup could have done a much better job of teaching her. I love her instructor, he's a real nice guy and I think he handles students very well. I wouldn't trust her safety to just anybody, and I think he taught a good class. But, he's never used a BP/W or a "long hose" setup, and I think his constant stream of complaints about the system did not help her feel like she could manage it. I think instructors should be required to have experience with more diving equipment so they are better able to handle students who use gear different from them.

Agreed on all counts. I just had the exact same experience with my wife's PADI instructor. It's frustrating. If you can find a GUE or UTD-trained instructor, I highly recommend a follow-up skills session with someone who really knows these rigs. It made a MASSIVE difference in my wife's comfort level.

[Jack Hammer]

I prefer my BP/W to my old BC by quite a large margin. I also wish I had saved the money I spent on my BC and put it toward a bp/w setup much earlier. All that said, I wouldn't have wanted to take my ow class in one, I'm glad I did the class in a BC.

My BC had a dump valve on each shoulder and one on the bottom. It was much easier for me to be able to vent gas by pulling the power inflator hose than to fumble around looking for the little pull knob or to remember to raise the hose while trying to maintain some semblance of bouyancy control. Had I been in a bp/w for my first few dives I likely would have had more than a few uncontrolled ascents.

To me a BC is like any other specialized tool, it has a place and purpose that it is well suited for. IMO it is a much better tool for learning to dive than a bp/w is and I would encourage new divers to use one for OW class.

Jack
*no offense intended for those who like BC's, dive what you like, not what I like or anyone else.