octo inflater for a dive master or instructor?

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by Matt P

Gotta admit I get nervous when I'm paired with a buddy who has an AirII. I don't want them trying to pass that thing off to me. I always ask insta-buddies what they're going to hand me in an OOA situation. Still get a little nervous that they may passoff the AirII in the heat of the moment if I don't know the diver.

Nobody should ever be passing off an Air II. They give the primary, just like cave / cavern divers do. In an emergency, no matter WHAT you may have, a paniced diver is going to go for the primary in your mouth anyway.

As for failures, what I have seen is inflators failing because they are not maintained. Wth an Air II, it is maintained every time I maintain the reg.

The only downside (legitimate downside, mind you) that I have heard about the Air II is that they are supposed to be tough to breath below about 120 feet or so. I have never tried this, so I can not answer for it.

I also heard they were supposed to be tough to use and maintain bounancy while swimming horizontally. This last is false, I can say this from personal experience.

And this doesn't mention 2 very important upsides to an Air II. 1. One less hose makes you more streamlined, with fewer things to catch on anything. 2. Since you use the Air II as an inflator, your are more prone to notice if anything is wrong with it long before you would notice a problem with an octo.

I noticed on a drift dive I was on in Jan, this one guy's octo was streaming bubbles. I told him after the dive. He said something about - that's where all my air was going! He had to swap it out. If an Air II did that, I would KNOW it right now.

So, I submit that the people that malign an Air II or similar device don't know what they are talking about.

[in_cavediver]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Nobody should ever be passing off an Air II. They give the primary, just like cave / cavern divers do. In an emergency, no matter WHAT you may have, a paniced diver is going to go for the primary in your mouth anyway.

As for failures, what I have seen is inflators failing because they are not maintained. Wth an Air II, it is maintained every time I maintain the reg.

The only downside (legitimate downside, mind you) that I have heard about the Air II is that they are supposed to be tough to breath below about 120 feet or so. I have never tried this, so I can not answer for it.

I also heard they were supposed to be tough to use and maintain bounancy while swimming horizontally. This last is false, I can say this from personal experience.

And this doesn't mention 2 very important upsides to an Air II. 1. One less hose makes you more streamlined, with fewer things to catch on anything. 2. Since you use the Air II as an inflator, your are more prone to notice if anything is wrong with it long before you would notice a problem with an octo.

I noticed on a drift dive I was on in Jan, this one guy's octo was streaming bubbles. I told him after the dive. He said something about - that's where all my air was going! He had to swap it out. If an Air II did that, I would KNOW it right now.

So, I submit that the people that malign an Air II or similar device don't know what they are talking about.

With all due respect, I personally believe the integrated device is sub-optimal. Its my opininion but its based on the following cost/benefit analysis

Advantages:
1) One less hose
2) Arguably more streamlined (I don't buy it in a well routed rig but I guess compared to some hose routings, its true)
3) BC Inflator serviced regularly

Disadvantages:
1) More complex (it is. I have seen the zeagle and Dive rite units and I challenge anyone not familar with it to determine which is the purge, which is the inflate and which is the deflate buttons)
2) More difficult to ascend with it. (not impossible)
3) Single failure takes out 2 pieces of equipment
4) Deviates from the 'normal' equipment divers are trained with. (this is also true of some 2nd stages such as the posiedon side breathers)

The funny thing is the tech divers are the ones most likely to not have a problem dealing with these devices in an emergency. In general terms, the more advanced dives you do, the more in tune you are with equipment and what's used on your dives. The more in tune and practiced you are, the less likely these minor differences matter.

Still, even sub-optimum (again, my opinion), they are a valid choice and divers who know and understand them can dive them safely. Heck, if my primary configuration was a single with a pony, I'd likely use one on my backgas and keep a standard 2nd on the pony (3 2nd stages). This problem of non-standardization is not limited to just this, its the same way with OC divers diving with RB divers.

Dive safe

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by in_cavediver

With all due respect, I personally believe the integrated device is sub-optimal. Its my opininion but its based on the following cost/benefit analysis

Advantages:
1) One less hose
2) Arguably more streamlined (I don't buy it in a well routed rig but I guess compared to some hose routings, its true)
3) BC Inflator serviced regularly

Disadvantages:
1) More complex (it is. I have seen the zeagle and Dive rite units and I challenge anyone not familar with it to determine which is the purge, which is the inflate and which is the deflate buttons)
2) More difficult to ascend with it. (not impossible)
3) Single failure takes out 2 pieces of equipment
4) Deviates from the 'normal' equipment divers are trained with. (this is also true of some 2nd stages such as the posiedon side breathers)

The funny thing is the tech divers are the ones most likely to not have a problem dealing with these devices in an emergency. In general terms, the more advanced dives you do, the more in tune you are with equipment and what's used on your dives. The more in tune and practiced you are, the less likely these minor differences matter.

Still, even sub-optimum (again, my opinion), they are a valid choice and divers who know and understand them can dive them safely. Heck, if my primary configuration was a single with a pony, I'd likely use one on my backgas and keep a standard 2nd on the pony (3 2nd stages). This problem of non-standardization is not limited to just this, its the same way with OC divers diving with RB divers.

Dive safe

Again, I disagree. I am talking about the Air II unit. The purge button is that big one in the center part to the reg - just like on an octo. The inflator is the round button, in the right place for your hand to fall naturally. The square button is also a purge, but typically is not used. Deflate? That's called your BC Dump - which is done in several ways - like the big tab on the opposite shoulder of my BC, or even better by tugging on the unit itself! (This causes the large hose to dump!)

Difficult to ascend - no more or less then a standard inflator, since that is all it is after all. That's experience talking from over 100 dives with it, rather than conjecture.

As for training? Many shops train WITH them instead of a standard octo, so that arguement is null and void as well.

And who is to define NORMAL equipment? Sorry, where I dive, the Air II is considered "normal" equipment.

Single point of failure - yes, but is this better than 2 points of failure that are not paid attention to? The point I am making is that reg service does inflator service. This is better then never servicing inflators (I have had my tech complain about failed inflators he gets in - because nobody did anything to them for 7 or more YEARS.

As for service life - I have never seen one fail in service (doesn't mean they don't) but I have seen other reg failures.

Worst thing I ever had happen to an Air II was when I fell on it on the sand. I ended up having to have it serviced because I got sand into it (Now before you start, the same fall put sand into my primary as well and it wasn't driven into the sand by my knee! My tech removed a handful of sand from all three regs after that incident!) I was afraid that I cracked it when I landed on it, but no such problem.

Another BIG plus. (This is from a rescue that I performed). The Air II is on the opposite side of the body from a standard octo. My buddy had that configuration, with both primary and octo falling to his hip. He got his right hand tangled in line, then knocked the reg out of his mouth. He could not sweep for either of his regs and had to take mine! An Air II would have been reachable with the left hand, which could not reach the other regs. Note that after this incident, he switched his octo out for an Air II.

Oh, and an Air II packs smaller on long trips.

[in_cavediver]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Again, I disagree. I am talking about the Air II unit. The purge button is that big one in the center part to the reg - just like on an octo. The inflator is the round button, in the right place for your hand to fall naturally. The square button is also a purge, but typically is not used. Deflate? That's called your BC Dump - which is done in several ways - like the big tab on the opposite shoulder of my BC, or even better by tugging on the unit itself! (This causes the large hose to dump!)

On my BC, (all 6 of them, (2) 55lb halcyon wings, (2) DR Nomad Wings, Sherwood jacket and Zeagle ranger), only one has a hose pull dump. All the others have two buttons, one for the inflate and one to dump, in the same place plus the bottom wing dumps. Adding a reg to the BC hose changes its layout by its very design.

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Difficult to ascend - no more or less then a standard inflator, since that is all it is after all. That's experience talking from over 100 dives with it, rather than conjecture.

That with the octo in your mouth???? I know it works the same when your not breathing it. When you are, its in your mouth. You either dump it there or have to take it out of your mouth to dump.

Originally Posted by Mycroft

As for training? Many shops train WITH them instead of a standard octo, so that arguement is null and void as well.

And no shop near me has them on their rental gear.

Originally Posted by Mycroft

And who is to define NORMAL equipment? Sorry, where I dive, the Air II is considered "normal" equipment.

This normal is defined by what appears in the training books. In the books I have, the standard is 2 2nds not an integrated one.

Sorry

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Single point of failure - yes, but is this better than 2 points of failure that are not paid attention to? The point I am making is that reg service does inflator service. This is better then never servicing inflators (I have had my tech complain about failed inflators he gets in - because nobody did anything to them for 7 or more YEARS.

Depends on who you ask. I personally say its not better. The chances of losing two items on the same dive is pretty small.

Originally Posted by Mycroft

As for service life - I have never seen one fail in service (doesn't mean they don't) but I have seen other reg failures.

I'd expect the same rates as other regs as well.

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Another BIG plus. (This is from a rescue that I performed). The Air II is on the opposite side of the body from a standard octo. My buddy had that configuration, with both primary and octo falling to his hip. He got his right hand tangled in line, then knocked the reg out of his mouth. He could not sweep for either of his regs and had to take mine! An Air II would have been reachable with the left hand, which could not reach the other regs. Note that after this incident, he switched his octo out for an Air II.

Sorry but the necklaced octo is even better. I can switch to it with out EITHER hand involved. Done it a few time as well.

As I said, I think they are a sub-optimal solution. They still work and people still like them.

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by in_cavediver

That with the octo in your mouth???? I know it works the same when your not breathing it. When you are, its in your mouth. You either dump it there or have to take it out of your mouth to dump.

Yes, with the Air II in my mouth, that's the point I have been trying to get across. And I had no trouble maintaining bouyancy during that operation.

Originally Posted by Mycroft

As for training? Many shops train WITH them instead of a standard octo, so that arguement is null and void as well.

Originally Posted by in_cavediver

And no shop near me has them on their rental gear.

And I see shops that have nothing but. Maybe it is regional as well?

Originally Posted by Mycroft

And who is to define NORMAL equipment? Sorry, where I dive, the Air II is considered "normal" equipment.

Originally Posted by in_cavediver

This normal is defined by what appears in the training books. In the books I have, the standard is 2 2nds not an integrated one.

Sorry

That is because many of the training books haven't been upgraded in years. And from a training standpoint it is always easier to teach individual items rather than multi function. But, if training was the "normal" we would all be diving tables still, wouldn't we? Sorry, not a valid point.

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Single point of failure - yes, but is this better than 2 points of failure that are not paid attention to? The point I am making is that reg service does inflator service. This is better then never servicing inflators (I have had my tech complain about failed inflators he gets in - because nobody did anything to them for 7 or more YEARS.

Originally Posted by in_cavediver

Depends on who you ask. I personally say its not better. The chances of losing two items on the same dive is pretty small.

Then we disagree on this point. And I have seen inflators fail at a higher degree, because people forget to service them.

Originally Posted by in_cavediver

Sorry but the necklaced octo is even better. I can switch to it with out EITHER hand involved. Done it a few time as well.

Sorry, I don't want ANYTHING wrapped around my neck. It feels like it is strangling me all the time, so THAT configuration is not only sub optimal for me, but actually BAD for me.

Originally Posted by in_cavediver

As I said, I think they are a sub-optimal solution. They still work and people still like them.

And I happen to think that they are a plus solution, and certainly not sub optimal. And no one has rasied a valid point yet that strikes me as proving they are sub optimal.

Bottom line, this arguement will never end. And unlike those argueing your side, I have tried the "dark side" and know what works better.

Unless you are going below 120 or so feet, I see nothing wrong with an Air II or equivalent. And since my diving is already limited to that point by quite a few factors, then I don't have a problem, ever. (Factors which include Medical profile, training, some gear which is only rated that deep - like my camera, my scooter. All these things range from 100-140 feet as a max depth.) Now if you are planning on going past those limits (which are the recreational limits!) then maybe an octo is better than a shared device.

[in_cavediver]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

And I happen to think that they are a plus solution, and certainly not sub optimal. And no one has rasied a valid point yet that strikes me as proving they are sub optimal.

Bottom line, this arguement will never end. And unlike those argueing your side, I have tried the "dark side" and know what works better.

On this, we definitely agree. What is sub-optimal for me and in my opinion may be a valid and optimal choice for others. The important part is to understand the implications of the choices made.

As I stated all along, the integrated device does complicate things simply because its different. Just because it does complicate things doesn't mean its unsafe or inappropriate to use, it just means it's something else to talk about with dive buddies.

[Aussie]

I have to agree on all points made by Cavediver as I run the same type of setup.

One point that hasnt been brought up is the effort to breath of an Octo inflator. I used to own a Zeagle Octo+ and it was like breathing through a wet sock.

On the other hand I have a Zeagle ZX second stage as my secondary as well as my primary. My both second stages breath the best at any depth which is what I require more than just simply loosing one hose for using the Octo inflator.

Do a whole dive on your AirII past 40m and feel how it breathes and let me know.

I Guess optimal is the gear you want to use at Depth (40m+) and sub-optimal is for gear you dont want to use past 40m and the Octo inflator combo is one of them.

Aussie

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by Aussie

I have to agree on all points made by Cavediver as I run the same type of setup.

One point that hasnt been brought up is the effort to breath of an Octo inflator. I used to own a Zeagle Octo+ and it was like breathing through a wet sock.

On the other hand I have a Zeagle ZX second stage as my secondary as well as my primary. My both second stages breath the best at any depth which is what I require more than just simply loosing one hose for using the Octo inflator.

Do a whole dive on your AirII past 40m and feel how it breathes and let me know.

I Guess optimal is the gear you want to use at Depth (40m+) and sub-optimal is for gear you dont want to use past 40m and the Octo inflator combo is one of them.

Aussie

And when you get past 40m, you are not a recreational diver, but a technical diver. The point you are making has already been acknowledged above, but is outside the scope of the discussion, as we are discussing recreational divers.

And I am sorry you got a Air II or equivalent that was either not adjusted properly or an inferior brand. That was your choice, and mine breathes as easy as my primary

[Matt P]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Nobody should ever be passing off an Air II.

Exactly!

[Aussie]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

And when you get past 40m, you are not a recreational diver, but a technical diver. The point you are making has already been acknowledged above, but is outside the scope of the discussion, as we are discussing recreational divers.

And I am sorry you got a Air II or equivalent that was either not adjusted properly or an inferior brand. That was your choice, and mine breathes as easy as my primary

Diving past 40m doesnt make you an instant technical diver. 40m is just the recommended maxium for recreational diver.

The scope of the discussion is about the use of an Octo inflator for instructors and DM's. I believe that Instructors and DM's should use a standard type of inflator (non-octo) which all students and new divers are shown how to use during there course. There is a range of different Octo inflators out there with different setups. Keeping it simple for new divers is most important.

You said that you have had an OOA situation with a buddy and it wasnt an issue cause you explained your setup to your buddy. Will it be an issue if your DMing and a diver who wasn't your buddy came to you in an OOA situation? Maybe a diver who doesnt speak english could understand why your breathing out of your inflator and why his/her doesnt.

It maybe be an issue in the states with Instructors/DM's using Octo inflator combo's but I have not seen an Instructor here in the South Pacific and Asia use them or any rental gear over here with an Octo inflator combo. They are a pain to service also.

I am sorry that loosing one hose is so important to you.

Aussie