Bush to lift offshore drilling ban

[ReefHound]

Originally Posted by aggie99

Honestly it is a reduction in oil prices rather than offshore drilling that scares me more.

Spoken like a person who sees high fuel costs as an inconvenience rather than a crisis. Tell that to the single mother who could barely pay the rent, feed the kids, and buy them clothes from the thrift store *before* everything skyrocketed in price. Or the elderly couple on a fixed income or really anyone making under $30k per year.

High oil prices don't just affect the price of gas at the pump, it permeates every corner of our society. People are just being slammed with another $100 per month for gasoline. They're getting hit with electricity, groceries, household products, and everything else as every business tries to "pass along" it's increased expenses to the consumer.

Every segment of our market outside the oil industry, from banking to housing to manufacturing to airlines, is taking it sharply on the chin and in many cases are on the verge of collapse. While I agree that high energy costs are instrumental in forcing people to change and conserve, our society is not structured for such rapid change. The cure is going to kill the patient.

[aggie99]

Originally Posted by georoc01

Yeah sales went back up, but only after a major price adjustment with most larger suvs being discounted up to $15,000 from what they sold for a year ago.

Meanwhile cars like the Prius are selling at a premium over their asking price, most being sold out prior to delivery to the dealer.

Its a supply/demand issue. Discount the Big SUV enough, and you will find a buyer. And if people really want a Prius, they will pay a premium for them until the supply increases or alternatives hit the marketplace.

And those SUV values have plummeted 30-40% in the last few months.

[georoc01]

Originally Posted by SlvrDragon50

another thing to consider is the future

I believe that the reason alternativefuels are being pushed so strongly right now is becuase people are realizing how ependen we are on fuel. If we open up offshore drilling and thus increasing supply, the research towArds alternatives will slow down again. When we reach the more major scarcity of fuel after emptying the offshore rigs, the prices on gas will be higher than ever and the fuel alternatives would be nowhere near as developed if off shore drilling cntinues to be banned.

If the goal was to get alternative fuels into the supply stream, all we would need to do is drop the protectionist tariffs that are in place to protect production in the midwest. Without those, the price of alternatives would be so low that it would be worth it to retrofit vehicles into flexfuel.

[aggie99]

Originally Posted by ReefHound

Spoken like a person who sees high fuel costs as an inconvenience rather than a crisis. Tell that to the single mother who could barely pay the rent, feed the kids, and buy them clothes from the thrift store *before* everything skyrocketed in price. Or the elderly couple on a fixed income or really anyone making under $30k per year.

High oil prices don't just affect the price of gas at the pump, it permeates every corner of our society. People are just being slammed with another $100 per month for gasoline. They're getting hit with electricity, groceries, household products, and everything else as every business tries to "pass along" it's increased expenses to the consumer.

Every segment of our market outside the oil industry, from banking to housing to manufacturing to airlines, is taking it sharply on the chin and in many cases are on the verge of collapse. While I agree that high energy costs are instrumental in forcing people to change and conserve, our society is not structured for such rapid change. The cure is going to kill the patient.

You are right that there are consumers that bear most of the burden of this issue and as always it affects the poor, elderly and underprivileged first. That is a whole different issue! What I don't like is taking the personal plight of an affected group to justify our ignorance. You can't tell me we thought we could continue consuming, as a nation, at the level we have, and still do, with no ramifications? We were not blindsided by this issue, we just chose to ignore it until it affected our pocket books and national security. When we have suburbs of Dallas that are closer to the Oklahoma border than downtown Dallas we have a problem. When the average home sizes in the US has increased from 1,400 sq.ft to 2,330 we have a problem. But tell someone 5 years ago they need to live closer to work or downsize their house or car to lessen the burden for the poorer class of America you would have been lynched. You are right we need a cure...not more bandages to hold back the bleeding. I just wish we hadn't ignored the symptoms for so long.

[aggie99]

Originally Posted by georoc01

If the goal was to get alternative fuels into the supply stream, all we would need to do is drop the protectionist tariffs that are in place to protect production in the midwest. Without those, the price of alternatives would be so low that it would be worth it to retrofit vehicles into flexfuel.

Or just open up trade of around 70 vehicles that get over 40mpg that are sold overseas (some by US manufacturers). Quoted from the linked article:

"Adding insult to injury is the fact that nearly two-thirds of the 113 highly fuel-efficient models that are unavailable to American consumers are either made by U.S.-based automobile manufacturers or by foreign manufacturers with substantial U.S. sales operations, such as Nissan and Toyota.
“These cars sold in Europe meet or exceed U.S. safety standards, so there is no reason why they shouldn’t be made available to U.S. consumers,” said CSI President Pam Solo.
“We have to face the unpleasant facts here: America is needlessly losing the race to develop the best fuel-efficient technology and then deliver it to the American consumer,” Solo said. “U.S. consumers say they are willing to buy these cars, so the big U.S. automakers are actually going backwards at a time when it’s possible to make cars that are more fuel efficient.” "

U.S. 'stuck in reverse' on fuel efficiency - The Driver's Seat - MSNBC.com

[Splitlip]

Originally Posted by georoc01

And its hypocritical for us as a country to exploit the rest of the world for 70% of our oil needs yet not be willing to use our own. There is certainly a greed component to OPEC, but also a fear that the US goal is to exploit everyone else's natural resources while hoarding our own supplies.

I'm cool with that.

As to what effect this might have? Maybe soften the futures market and lower the price.

[DevilDiver]

Originally Posted by Vercingetorix

DevilDiver, did you really mean to allow multiple selections? And, no offense, but you may wish to make the poll anonymous. You'll get more responses.

Wow... Get busy with work for a few hours and the post goes wild!

Great points, let's keep it nice here. We are all in the same proverbial car and we obviously have a long ride ahead of us.

I did not see a reason to make the poll anonymous but if it would make people more comfortable I will. Just tell me how.....

[ReefHound]

Originally Posted by aggie99

You are right that there are consumers that bear most of the burden of this issue and as always it affects the poor, elderly and underprivileged first. That is a whole different issue! What I don't like is taking the personal plight of an affected group to justify our ignorance. You can't tell me we thought we could continue consuming, as a nation, at the level we have, and still do, with no ramifications? We were not blindsided by this issue, we just chose to ignore it until it affected our pocket books and national security. When we have suburbs of Dallas that are closer to the Oklahoma border than downtown Dallas we have a problem. When the average home sizes in the US has increased from 1,400 sq.ft to 2,330 we have a problem. But tell someone 5 years ago they need to live closer to work or downsize their house or car to lessen the burden for the poorer class of America you would have been lynched. You are right we need a cure...not more bandages to hold back the bleeding. I just wish we hadn't ignored the symptoms for so long.

We were becoming more efficient even before the spike in fuel prices. Progress was gradually being made. Some people were buying larger SUVs that were offsetting gains in vehicle improvements but other areas were marching forward. Windmill farms were being built many years ago, appliances and electronics were getting more efficient with each new model, fluorescent lighting was becoming common. But society is designed for generational changes, not abrupt changes that disrupt a way of life. We can eventually adapt to $5 or even $10 gas but not in two years.

Europe did not become efficient overnight, either. Nor are they living pain free now. They have seen gas go from about $8 to $10. Truckers and shippers in Europe are being badly hurt by their much smaller percentage increase. If Europe saw it's fuel costs double in two years it would collapse like a house of cards. They got to where they are over generations and to expect us to match it in a decade much less a few years is ridiculous.

At some point (perhaps now) high fuel prices become counter productive and hurt improved efficiency and alternative energies. Most of these solutions require a substantial capital investment upfront and these fuel prices are draining that capital. Look at places like rural Mexico and note how they drive old gas guzzling cars and use antique electricity sucking appliances. It isn't because they are rich and can afford to waste energy, it's because they can't afford the newer more efficient solution.

[CompuDude]

Originally Posted by OH-JJ

hmmm your right fish and marine life absolutly hate offshore rigs.... and they would never accept them as artifical reefs.....

The offshore marine life LOVE the oil rigs. So much life there, it's one of my favorite places to dive.

The issue, to me, isn't the drilling or the pumping. It's the risk of a spill. The small amount of good an offshore artificial reef does to the local marine populations pales in comparison to the massive amount of damage that can be caused by a spill.

If they could guarantee no spills, I'd cheerfully wave a flag for them while they headed out to begin working. But the fact is, they can't. Anyone who has actually witnessed a spill first hand knows this.

[SlvrDragon50]

:P Not much longer will the US be stuck in the races..

VW Confirms 1L Concept Will Become Reality in 2010 : Gas 2.0

and

Aptera’s $26,000 Electric Car and 300 MPG Hybrid Coming Soon : Gas 2.0

With those two cars, easily affordable to the average family, it will only take maybe one or two years to recuperate money.