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Thread: Dual bladder

  1. #11
    THE Supreme Master Spammer Founding Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by navyhmc View Post
    I was thinking about that same event Dennis. Though a few other divers did the same: have the back up lp hose alongside but not connected.
    Like. .
    Tim "The Star and Crescent shall not be worn by every man, but only by him who is worthy to wear it. He must be a gentleman... a man of honor and courage... a man of zeal, yet humble... an intelligent man...a man of truth... one who tempers action with wisdom and, above all else, one who walks in the light of God."

  2. #12
    TadPole
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScubaBum View Post
    I'm sure this has been brought up before, but I'm getting ready to take intro to tech, and was curious if it was possible to stack two seperate wings to a harness for redundancy, rather than buy a double bladder, or a dry suit?
    Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I want to know all my options.
    Since this is a DIR forum, I feel compelled to mention that dual bladders are considered the wrong choice by all of the DIR originals, or by GUE. :-)
    The 40 pound single wing should be the most lift any tech diver will need, unless they are doing transport duty for a team dive and have 6 tanks hooked up to them like bananas, on the left side. Then you might go with a 50. For normal tech use, a 40 trims better/easier than a 50, and is less drag.
    The real issue here is the "DIR position" -- that you solve the first bladder/wing rupture /failure not by a 2nd bladder, but by using a balanced rig.....A balanced rig, means among other things, that without using any wing at all, you can swim yourself to the surface. There is no such thing as a trully DIR diver that can not swim to the surface with a Wing failure, or even a dry suit and wing failure. This is one place PADI TECH deviates from DIR ideology. If you take PADI Tech, my recommendation is to do what you need to for your card, and if this means borrowing or getting a dual bladder for the class, do it...then, get rid of the dual bladder as soon as the card is yours..

    You MUST choose your tanks with your " easy swim to the surface weight" in mind, and the total duration at depth, and air consumption, is also based on not carrying too much gas, this being a limiting factor to the weight you can carry.

    George Irvine, Bill Mee and I always have used dual 80's or dual 72's( in the old days) for deep ocean, because they are so easy to swim up....and, they provided all the gas we would need for any dive down to 280 feet, for durations up to 25 minutes long.
    Based on your sac rate, you can decide how long you can stay down and still have plenty of gas for you and your buddy, no matter what, to go through stops and safely reach the surface. If you want 35 minutes, but this is not enough gas, our suggestion would be that 35 minutes is too unsafe for too many reasons...you would need too much gas, this would create too many unsafe issues as discussed above, in addition to huge drag that makes you work harder and go slower and less efficiently on the dive, and less able to handle currents. Also, the deco obligation for dives you "could do" with double lp 120's jacked up to 4 grand, could get you in to a mandatory deco that was so long, that it creates huge dangers all by itself----with 2 and 3 hour long deep ocean decos, what happens if a buddy is hurt and needs to get to a hospital...and minutes count? With the hour long deco, you can do 30 and get out, and save someone's life. And maybe have some issues yourself, but survivable...If it was a 3 hour mandatory, and you try 30 minutes of deco, you are hosed.
    Or, a 3 hour deco is obligated, and now a huge storm comes along....the ocean is a dynamic place, you don't always know what conditions will change to in a hour or 2, so really long dives in deep ocean are not DIR. Another reason we push the dual 80's :-)

  3. #13
    Barracuda
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    I watched you video about DIR about dozen times over the years. I dive sidemount (not dir but that's another topic for another time) and when I dive dual AL80 with 20 to 25lbs of lift and diving wet (5mil or less) I found that I can swim them to the surface but there is not way can I do long safety stop with a total failure of my wing. I do carry a large safety sausage that will allow me to do a stop. While diving wet I only use AL80 tanks, steels I feel are too negative for me.

    If I dive my SMS100 (50lbs of Lift) two LP85 and drysuit there is no way I can swim that to the surface at the beginning of the dive. I do have a lift bag, SMB and my drysuit for backup lift. I guess my question to you is if you diving steels how can you get a balanced rig?

    I haven't had a tank on my back in over two years and even do fish watching I dive single sidemount with AL80.
    - Dennis ><()))">

  4. #14
    TadPole
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWSWine View Post
    I watched you video about DIR about dozen times over the years. I dive sidemount (not dir but that's another topic for another time) and when I dive dual AL80 with 20 to 25lbs of lift and diving wet (5mil or less) I found that I can swim them to the surface but there is not way can I do long safety stop with a total failure of my wing. I do carry a large safety sausage that will allow me to do a stop. While diving wet I only use AL80 tanks, steels I feel are too negative for me.

    If I dive my SMS100 (50lbs of Lift) two LP85 and drysuit there is no way I can swim that to the surface at the beginning of the dive. I do have a lift bag, SMB and my drysuit for backup lift. I guess my question to you is if you diving steels how can you get a balanced rig?

    I haven't had a tank on my back in over two years and even do fish watching I dive single sidemount with AL80.
    Double steels are an issue in ocean. Not in freshwater cave.
    I have not used 85 cu ft steels so I can't comment on how heavy they are compared to al 80 or steel 72.....

    With wetsuit, no way would I use double 100 steels. With drysuit, and weight belt you could ditch, and it is better but still would be hard for some people to swim up with a failed wing and leaking drysuit. My interpretation from George was always use the dual al 80's in ocean for deep--not big steels...Now for drysuit and a single tank, I love the steel 100's and would probably like the 85's....Still easy to swim up, and it gets weight off your waist.
    The old steel 72's were great as dual tanks for creating a balanced rig... there is a new steel tank similar , I have heard for bouyancy, but I have not tried it and obviously can't comment on it.

    So I guess what I am saying is if you have tried swimming tghe double 85's up without wing inflation, and they are too heavy, then the DIR position would be break them up and use them for single tank dives...you can never have too many singles lieing around :-) , you will always be able to use them. And grab a couple of al 80's for your double sidemounting....

    Of course you know, I can't tell you how to be DIR for sidemount :-) It was never intended to address this as a primary mode of diving.
    All I can do is offer the safety and team ideas that worked for WKPP, and that George put into the DIR message.

  5. #15
    THE Supreme Master Spammer Founding Member
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    Oops. I did not realize this was the DIR forum.
    Tim "The Star and Crescent shall not be worn by every man, but only by him who is worthy to wear it. He must be a gentleman... a man of honor and courage... a man of zeal, yet humble... an intelligent man...a man of truth... one who tempers action with wisdom and, above all else, one who walks in the light of God."

  6. #16
    Guppy
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    No disrespect to you Danvolker, but Splitlip, it isn't the DIR forum. It's the DIR and Tec Gear forum. And so you should get what you're getting - opinions from both DIR and non-DIR folks.

    As to your original question, I tend to agree with others that your first stop should be with your instructor. He's going to be the ultimate authority as to what is or isn't acceptable in his or her class. And if you haven't picked one yet and are just looking for some basic information, then the answer is that yes, stacking bladders is sometimes practiced, but is definitely not the best way to do things.

    Realistically if you are going to use a redundant bladder, it's typically cheaper to get that over two individual doubles wings. Again buying gear with the help of an instructor who can refine what you want based upon the type of diving and training you are going to do not only now, but in the future, is the best course of action in the long run.
    Michael

    For strange effects and extraordinary combinations we must go to life itself, which is always far more daring than any effort of the imagination. - Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

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