diving with a pony vs doubles

[Scuba Pete]

Originally Posted by Nemrod

1. more volume/capacity
2. with an isolation manifold and twin regulators you have full redundancy
3. some like the balance

But:

1. they are hugely heavy
2. require a wing and a big one at that
3. some people don't like the balance
4. fills cost an arm
5. expensive

Most dives simply do not need doubles or that level of redundancy unless you are going into overhead or deco. Even solo divers in open water do not really need all this redundancy and would be better served by more minimalistic rigs that are selected on the basis of maneuverability and high reliability. A pony slung is a good choice for deeper solo excursions.

N

1. they are hugely heavy- Depends on the tank size and composition
2. require a wing and a big one at that - My Rec wing can handle double 104's as well as a single 80
3. some people don't like the balance- WHO? They balance perfect in the water.
4. fills cost an arm- Same as 2 single tanks. If you do 2 dives on doubles you are spending the same for air.
5. expensive- Doubly yes, but if the option is doubles or a pony, i am assuming you already have an al 80 tank. The price difference is not that big. maybe 150-200.

I don't know why so many people are negative about the use of doubles. Once a person is certified and have some form of skills in the water i think that they should explore what kind of gear they like and want to use. Personally i would only dive doubles give given the option. They are a pain to walk in sometimes, especially the larger tanks, but smaller tanks like the al 80's are a dream. I started diving doubles with 20 dives i have only done 4 dives since on a single tank. I have a little over a hundred dives total, i would consider only 17 technical dives. So out of my dives roughly 61 of my dives were diving doubles recreationally. At first i didn't know how to manipulate the valves but that comes with using them more. I was lucky enough to have a buddy that dove them and a few mentors to help me along the way. It all depends on the diver. There are rules that should be followed but in the way of experience more dives does not equal a better diver. I have seen some atrocious diving from people that have many times more dives than i do.

[jj1987]

Originally Posted by Scuba Pete

How is that any different than using 2 tanks on 2 dives. You are actually paying the same amount for air. I can get 2 or 3 dives from my doubles so i think that is an invalid point.

On that 3rd dive, I doubt that you have much (if any) redundancy at any kind of depth unless you're god's gift to valve drills. And you've got to remember that if you do 1 dive on your doubles, then want to go on a 2 tank dive the next week, you're paying for TWO tank fills instead of one....now if you're lucky like those of us in FL, it's sold by the cu ft, so it doesn't matter anyways.

Besides the look cool factor, I don't really see what advantage there is to lugging them around vs a AL40 slung on your side. I'll wear doubles for dives that require it, and singles for dives that don't, but maybe I'm just lazy.

[navyhmc]

Originally Posted by Scuba Pete

1. they are hugely heavy- Depends on the tank size and composition
2. require a wing and a big one at that - My Rec wing can handle double 104's as well as a single 80
3. some people don't like the balance- WHO? They balance perfect in the water.
4. fills cost an arm- Same as 2 single tanks. If you do 2 dives on doubles you are spending the same for air.
5. expensive- Doubly yes, but if the option is doubles or a pony, i am assuming you already have an al 80 tank. The price difference is not that big. maybe 150-200.

I don't know why so many people are negative about the use of doubles. Once a person is certified and have some form of skills in the water i think that they should explore what kind of gear they like and want to use. Personally i would only dive doubles give given the option. They are a pain to walk in sometimes, especially the larger tanks, but smaller tanks like the al 80's are a dream. I started diving doubles with 20 dives i have only done 4 dives since on a single tank. I have a little over a hundred dives total, i would consider only 17 technical dives. So out of my dives roughly 61 of my dives were diving doubles recreationally. At first i didn't know how to manipulate the valves but that comes with using them more. I was lucky enough to have a buddy that dove them and a few mentors to help me along the way. It all depends on the diver. There are rules that should be followed but in the way of experience more dives does not equal a better diver. I have seen some atrocious diving from people that have many times more dives than i do.

I'm not negative on doubles, but I'm not suggesting every diver go out and get them:

1. they are hugely heavy- Depends on the tank size and composition. Outside of double 80's which will weight about 80 lbs w/o BC, a steel will weight somewhere in the 90+ range. my 119's weight 125 when full.
2. require a wing and a big one at that - My Rec wing can handle double 104's as well as a single 80. While I will agree a RW will handle the 104's what about reserve lift? how much des it have. It sucks to be deep and find you need more lift.
3. some people don't like the balance- WHO? They balance perfect in the water. I don't know about your's but it took a while for me to get used to the extra weight on my back. The first 3-4 dives, I found myself fighting with them to keep from "Turtling" You get used to it and learn how to balance them with time, but it is learned, not automatic.
4. fills cost an arm- Same as 2 single tanks. If you do 2 dives on doubles you are spending the same for air.
5. expensive- Doubly yes, but if the option is doubles or a pony, i am assuming you already have an al 80 tank. The price difference is not that big. maybe 150-200. Only if you're doubling your 80's but even then(ST pricing here), you need another 80: $149, a manifold $203-$233, bands: $136-$160, or a soft setup such as a remora: $186 if you want to keep them as indie doubles. If you want to go to steel: $590-$820 for HP, $540-$760 for LP Manifold:$203-$233, bands: $136-$160, I wouldn't recommend a soft setup such as a remora for steel as indie doubles.

A pony is $115 for a 19cuft to $133 for a 40 cu ft. Plus the reg of your choice: $169 to $1549 (recommend the $169 reg....) plus either a Zeagle type attachment system: $49 or sling: $45. So either way, you're putting out some $$$.

Not intending to diss or flame, just pointing out.

[Scuba Pete]

40 CF is roughly 500 psi in double 104's i dont really ever go below 800. When i get 3 dives out of them they are generally shallow and or short. where redundancy doesn't really matter, you don't have redundancy with single tank anyway. Would you complain that your fill for an 80 cost the same as a 130, or a 40, etc? I agree that it makes no since and i love getting gas by the cf. But if the reason you don't dive double is because you have to pay for another tank to fill, then i agree doubles just aren't for you. I can get 2 good dives from doubles. And i am not gods gift to anyone for that matter. Just ask the GF, LOL. I would much rather wear double 72's and not have to screw around with a slung pony. If something were to happen i dont have to fumble around to find the correct reg to the pony. I know where each of mine are. There is less to deal with. But like anything i guess it is up to you and what you are comfortable with. Personally i dont see the point to a pony. I am comfortable diving doubles, so that is what i am sticking to.

[Scuba Pete]

Originally Posted by navyhmc

I'm not negative on doubles, but I'm not suggesting every diver go out and get them:

1. they are hugely heavy- Depends on the tank size and composition. Outside of double 80's which will weight about 80 lbs w/o BC, a steel will weight somewhere in the 90+ range. my 119's weight 125 when full.
2. require a wing and a big one at that - My Rec wing can handle double 104's as well as a single 80. While I will agree a RW will handle the 104's what about reserve lift? how much des it have. It sucks to be deep and find you need more lift.
3. some people don't like the balance- WHO? They balance perfect in the water. I don't know about your's but it took a while for me to get used to the extra weight on my back. The first 3-4 dives, I found myself fighting with them to keep from "Turtling" You get used to it and learn how to balance them with time, but it is learned, not automatic.
4. fills cost an arm- Same as 2 single tanks. If you do 2 dives on doubles you are spending the same for air.
5. expensive- Doubly yes, but if the option is doubles or a pony, i am assuming you already have an al 80 tank. The price difference is not that big. maybe 150-200. Only if you're doubling your 80's but even then(ST pricing here), you need another 80: $149, a manifold $203-$233, bands: $136-$160, or a soft setup such as a remora: $186 if you want to keep them as indie doubles. If you want to go to steel: $590-$820 for HP, $540-$760 for LP Manifold:$203-$233, bands: $136-$160, I wouldn't recommend a soft setup such as a remora for steel as indie doubles.

A pony is $115 for a 19cuft to $133 for a 40 cu ft. Plus the reg of your choice: $169 to $1549 (recommend the $169 reg....) plus either a Zeagle type attachment system: $49 or sling: $45. So either way, you're putting out some $$$.

Not intending to diss or flame, just pointing out.

As far as balance i have never really had a problem with them. My first dive with doubles were with 104's. I sank to the bottom really quickly but i didn't turtle or felt like i would.

The pricing difference is really only the manifold and bands. You are buying a tank either way. And you are buying a regulator either way. using your prices 233+160=393 minus sling 45 = 348. So a little more than 200 like i posted before. not counting the BC which my ranger could already do the trick. But i guess we can agree to disagree on this.

I agree that a new diver fresh out of class should jump in with doubles. But given the right circumstances i don't see why someone couldn't try them.

[cummings66]

Originally Posted by CompuDude

All of your fills will cost double. Not a huge deal with air fills, perhaps, but if you're diving Nitrox the costs can add up pretty quickly. I've seen Nitrox fills for $8-15, with an average around $12, from what I've seen. $12 for a dive, no biggie, but $24 per dive starts getting expensive.

Not really, consider some math. Say you've got two HP100's and return to the surface with 800 psi left. Not enough to do a dive of any real length or depth. But lets say you had doubles on, well now you're able to do a bit longer dive because that 800 psi you would have had left is added to the other cylinder. Say you had 500 psi left on the surface with doubles, that's like 250 psi per cylinder on singles, so you gain a bit more air and thus more dive time. It's better if you return with larger amounts which are not enough to do a dive.

For example, this past weekend I did 3 dives with my double HP100's. Mostly because I had more air left at the end of dive 2 than normal and had enough for a third boat dive. Those with singles couldn't do the same thing.

[cummings66]

I think the added skills needed for doubles is a valid point, not everybody takes to them easily. I did, never had a seconds problem but I know plenty who have.

I dive with doubles, sometimes 2 AL40's slung with them on one side. It's no big deal. I have done one dive and had to face the 2x charge for what is really one cylinder but that's not common because I make a point to try and use all the air. It's very similar to what happens on a short aborted dive on an AL80, sometimes things happen that cost you an extra $5.

[Jack Hammer]

Just because some people have never had a balance/trim issue with doubles doesn't negate that many other people have had those issues. I've personally talked with more than a few experienced and accomplished divers that ended up turtling on the bottom the first time they used doubles. I've seen some people nail the setup on the first try. I was somewhere in between. When I first dove it was easy, then I made a few insulation and weighting changes and it went a bit wacky.

The big advantage for me with doubles is when I do dives to different depths. I can do an hour long dive in teh 80' range followed by a an hour long dive in the 40' range and have plenty of gas for each. With singles, I wouldn't have enough gas for that length on the first and would end the second with a lot left over.

[CompuDude]

Originally Posted by Scuba Pete

How is that any different than using 2 tanks on 2 dives. You are actually paying the same amount for air. I can get 2 or 3 dives from my doubles so i think that is an invalid point.

Sure, if that's what you end up doing.

But sometimes you plan to do two but only end up doing one.

And if you had planned to do one long extended dive, you're paying for double fills even if you could have done the same dive with one HP130.

And if you planned to do one very long dive, and had to shorten the dive for some reason, you still get to pay for two full fills to refill even 1000 psi to top off the tanks.

A short skills dive that lasts 1/2 hr in shallow water now costs 2x the price to top off your tanks for the next real dive... even though you only used 300-500 psi, shops don't care... they hook up doubles, you pay for 2 fills.

Ditto for boats. If you're diving rec profiles on boats with on-board compressors, generally they are going to charge you double for fills whether you use all the gas or not. If you're squeezing 2 dives per fill out that will help, but there are boats that charge a flat a rate for the day's fills and then double that if you have doubles.

There are tons of scenarios that this would apply to... it's not really that tough to figure this out.

Unless you're paying for gas by the cf, refilling doubles is going to cost double what it costs to refill a single tank... so unless you genuinely need 2x the gas, you're paying a lot more. Again, not large amount of money until you start looking at Nitrox, but even with air it adds up if you're doing it a lot.

[Nemrod]

Whoa scuba dudes, he asked for positives and negatives. I am not negative on doubles but my back is, sorry, when you get older you will see. Also, I don't like them on my little boat. Instead of being able to snap them securely into my Roll Control brackets I have to lay them somewhere to trip me, stub my wife's toe and in general get in the way. On larger boats, in places where they are needed, for deep, deco, cave etc they are the cat's meow.

BTW, I consider a Rec Wing pretty darn huge. Not exactly a Mach V 18.

N