The Father / Daughter Talk

[Lulubelle]

Originally Posted by monant

I don’t think you really understand my conservative viewpoint. It may shock you to know that I believe we should assist whose circumstances, if beyond their control deem assistance. I don’t believe relying upon this assistance should be a way of life unless there are no other options. It’s great for us to provide job training to someone who has lost their job. It’s a drain on society to provide that person a meager paycheck and not expect anything in return. It’s much better to provide low income housing, food stamps, child care, and tuition for a single mother. It’s not O.K. to provide assistance to this single mother for life and that of her child. The liberal entitlement mentality has created a class of people who are not self sufficient and rely solely upon the government for everything. Making a living for those who will not work takes assistance away from those who cannot work. Living an existence of only having your basic needs met breeds crime, perpetuates the entitlement mentality, creates class warfare, and gives liberal politicians a dependable power base.

And you monant, did not actually read what I wrote or you would realize that our beliefs are not so far apart. I absolutely am NOT a fan of programs that breed a lifelong habit of entitlement. I wasn't even talking about people who are so far down in the trenches as to qualify for Medicaid and such. I'm a bit more worried about those who are the working poor, staying off of the public dole, but have no reasonable means of buying health insurance, so they don't. Then then get sick, can't care for themselves, have a heart attack or stroke, become disabled and are on the public dole 20 years earlier than they should be. It is not humane and we as a culture should want that person healthy and working regardless of political point of view. And I am also horribly bothered by the fact that the tax code is written in a way that as a wage earner without any loopholes that I am eligible for, I paid more taxes last year than a very wealthy developer here who has so many loopholes that he pays virtually no taxes. My point was a simple one, the tax code is broken, it needs to be fixed, and we would have the money to both reduce our debt and improve access to basic needs like healthcare if it was.

Making a mockery of other's views without even trying to understand them is not the way to get people to respect yours. Good luck and goodbye.

[Lulubelle]

Originally Posted by rox@ucf11

But we do have programs for this.... In my opinion there should be a flat tax, and you should be taxed a set percent of your income, it would be fair to everyone then... Unfortunately this will never happen. The government needs to get their act together, because quite a few of the welfare programs are utter failures, maybe there could be a way to privatilize them, so that they could have some accountability, because the government obviously do not, (the housing/and loan crisis bailed out by the tax payers)

The fact of the matter is too many people abuse the system some would rather sit on their buts, and get a welfare check, rather than get up and try to make a different life for themselves, I dont have a problem at all with helping out a person in need, but again the system is abused. For example I was walking into a fast food joint, (and I really didnt have any cash on me) but a guy standing right in front of the liquor store, came up to me and asked me for some money for food, I would like to believe that he really was getting food, but comeone this happens way to often. Also, quite a few people pay no taxes at all, and even get a tax refund comeone now, theres a point at which the system failed, and has just gone too far. By no means is this everyone or even most, but the people that abuse it certainly mess it up for the rest.

I'm right there with you on either a flat tax, without the extensive loopholes that exist today (there are wealthy business owners who pay NOTHING every year) OR a consumption tax. I am eligible for no loopholes at all anymore and get eaten alive by taxes. Meanwhile, a wealthy developer with whom my family does business pays far less than me.

A solution to the guy asking for money to buy himself a meal. Offer to buy it for him. Addiction is pretty ugly, but if he is really hungry, he will say yes. If he says no, they give him no mind and feel good about not feeding his problem. I used to feed a heroin addict in New Orleans. Don't know if it helped in the long run, but it kept her alive for a while.

[wgt]

Where do American conservatives and liberals respectively stand on mask on forehead?

[Lulubelle]

Originally Posted by wgt

Where do American conservatives and liberals respectively stand on mask on forehead?

You know, I'm more of an independent/conservative democrat/little bit of a rebel and I personally like my mask on my forehead. Around my neck is icky, and off in the ocean isn't such a good idea or it will go missing. So I vote for not obeying the universal signal of not wearing it there. Thanks for the diffusing.

Devo andare alla scuola per studiare L'Italiano, allora, arriverderci!

[monant]

Don't be so down, we live in a great country. There is hope for all.

[monant]

Originally Posted by monant

Don't be so down, we live in a great country. There is hope for all.

After reading this post on-line I realized it may seem that I'm trying to infuriate Lulubelle. I’m not. I just get the sense from past experiences and the perception of what I read in her posts that she may be a little disappointed with her country. Regardless of our faults, our nation offers more opportunity for more people that any country on earth.

[thor]

Donating my 50.00 ST card (when I get it)..


Thank goodness he didn't say: "Well I worked really hard to get my $50 gift card, and those less fortunate people are less deserving of scuba equipment than I. If you want a gift card, you better pull yourself up and start posting on the forum"

It's funny how everyone is in favor of helping those who are slightly less fortunate, but so few are willing to help those who are really unfortunate.

[jbanks27]

I think that everyone forgets that not a single one of our cherrished few in Washington is poor, or has to really work for a living. None of them knows what it really means to have to pay a bill.

Take our wonderful Financial Rescue Act of 2008. I love watching the media say that it will cost every man, woman, and child in America 2300 to 2800 each. This is an absolute lie.

Look at this wonderful program in a new light. People who are low income families do not pay taxes. They get an immediate rebate of all FICA paid into the IRS so they are not going to be paying that nice figure. I'm waiting on the new earned income tax rescue credit for financial stimulus....

People who are the ultra rich also do not really pay taxes on their incomes, because they don't really have incomes. They have what is called capital gains, which means when they cash out of an investment or other gaining financial transaction which has been held for in excess of 12 months, they pay 15% income tax on that gain.

Who is going to pay the wonderful bill. Good hard working people who do try every month to pay their bills, and raise a family. The middle class. The middle class doesn't have a label of Republican or Democrat. It just has a target right now.

When this country was founded, it was paid for through excise taxes and land taxes. People who owned property paid the bills. It was the early 1900's when an agreement was reached to extend taxes to start and include incomes, and that was based upon the creation of taxes due to a few familys controlling substantial sums of money, but not paying "What the then democrats deemed was their fair share". Look at what is has done now. We now run the risk of creating a new ultra poor, and a middle poor class.

Good luck paying the bill for everyone else's bad decisions.

[BlowingBubbles]

Originally Posted by kong

I thought you saved them for special occasions like gay weddings?

Hmmm... I wouldn't think of this as a topic for humor, even if you are trying to make a tongue-in-cheek point.

[marchand]

Originally Posted by Lulubelle

OK, that was funny...but...in talking about "redistribution of wealth" as you call it, we are not talking about a GPA for goodness sake, we are talking about giving people the ability to feed their children, put a roof over their families head, getting proper healthcare for their families, etc. I grew up in Republican household myself. 12 years of being face to face with people in need have shown me that most people in unfortunate circumstances do NOT do it to themselves. Life happens. They have a sick family member, lose their house and business as a result, etc. Or maybe they didn't have the chance for a good education and are slogging it away in a low paying career. We aren't talking about people who are on Medicaid and having lots of babies. We are talking about people who are working, who get no assistance of any kind, who don't have health care, and who make more than the 980 dollars a month gross that an individual has to make less than to qualify for medicaid but not enough to afford health insurance, or a decent home, or good food for the kids etc. I'm not sure when people on this earth decided that they had no obligation to anyone other than themselves, but we all live together, and in my book, if I am fortunate I have a moral duty to try to improve the lot of others who are less so.

For the record, I didn't become a committed Moderate Democrat until later in life, and I am one of the financially fortunate who will be in the bucket of being taxed more under our Democratic Congress.

I didn't take the time to read the whole thread...

Good for you for being a caring person and wanting to help improve the lives of less fortunate people, but it is NOT the governments job to take money from someone and give it to someone else because that someone else is less fortunate or going through hard times.

Say you have two people, person A and person B, who work the same job, work equally hard at it, and bring home the same pay check. Then lets say that person A's father has a stroke and becomes disabled as a result leaving person A to care for him. As a result person A has to spend time and money to take care of his father and is severely stretched financially because of it. Would it be just for the company they work for to take money out of person B's paycheck and give it to person A? Does person B have a moral duty to help person A financially? It is not just because person A is getting something he did not earn and person B is not getting something he did earn. Person B may or may not have a moral duty to help person A depending on his morals. If he does decide to help person A for what ever reason, good for him. If he doesn't for whatever reason who am I to judge; it is his labor after all. Is government redistribution of wealth moral? Possibly. Is it just? No, it is not just and seeing that congress is supposed to make laws that uphold what is just it is unconstitutional for the government to take money out of person B's paycheck and give it to person A no matter what difficulties person A is going through.