What types of pictures and what is good and bad

[Puffer Fish]

Aussie has raised a couple of interesting points, and several interesting questions regarding what camera to use.

Not to argue or say what is right or wrong, but there are a lot of reasons for taking pictures..

1. Memories - nothing to do with quality or art, just to remember something by.

2. Objects - I, for example, collect fish pictures (for ID reasons). I like a nice image, but some are not pretty, some are drab. Does not seem to matter how I or anyone takes a picture of a soap fish.. that is one ugly fish.

3. Friends - just to remind you of a great time and great people...usually does not mean anything to any one that was not there, but can be little treasures.

4. Wall paper - Images that may be art, may be patterns, but just look nice. I sometimes just shoot for this reason (my avatar was shoot for that purpose).

5. Art. Anyone that has been to my house would know that I have walls filled with pictures. Mostly mine, but I have pictures from others.

6. Commercial images, that one sells.

I will just throw up two images:



This old, damaged copy of a slide was taken in 1973... living in the tropics is not good for film and this one has holes in the image layers. Why do I keep it? It was taken while diving in 30 to 40 foot seas.. something I would never do today, and would suggest others don't. One look at this image and I can remember just how it felt. You can say the fish is at the wrong angle, the framing sucks... and I am ok with that.

This one:



It was taken, just to get a picture of a sharp nosed puffer, but I just like the happy look of the guy on the left..not a great picture and I only had one strobe at the time...

One was taken with dual strobes, used as fill flash, one was taken with the flood flash method... neither is any great image... both I like.

As I get time, will dig out images in every group, but the goal of taking pictures should never be a competition, and the only one you should be making happy is yourself...but some skills make any group of pictures easier to take.

And just to be clear.. if you want to do commercial work, you need a DSLR... other than that, it is not required.

[Aussie]

Puff,

The real issue was pertaining to your hypocritical and arrogant manner which you often portray yourself in this section. This might be just your personality and it all might be mistaken as an individuals written word does not show their true self (might be nice bloke when talking to in person, but they sounds like a right pr*ck when they type).

This was shown in the recent Posting by Smoothdome in regards to help with deciding on dSLR gear etc etc.

"Looking at your images, you have some excellent ones, you tend to over use strobes (really common dual strobe, DSLR issue). For the most part, you need less flash, not more. I would be turning down your strobes by around 2 f stops worth of light."

I expected more from a so called professional and was very surprised to see this comment knowing the fact that you have told me that you, yourself do not shoot with a dSLR and are looking at buying a second strobe to make a dual. I expected a reference also to which shots had in your opinion strobe over usage. Also bare in mind that there is also a lot of shot from a Olympus c7070 amoung them too.

"Actually, there are several times more of my pictures posted in ST's forums than you have in the picture section. But that is neither important nor valid. Whether I have taken 10,000 images, or none is also not the point."

I have seen only some of your pictures on your educational threads. But to reference them all together and at a later date the gallery is the only option. The whole point is if you are going to lecture us in photo technique providing excellent examples of your own work is required.

At least i have placed my 109 over strobed shots in the Gallery. Which until the other day you only had one.

Stating "weather I have taken 10,000 images, or none is also not the point" does not make any sense. Are you providing experience from your own work or just from reading others. I would believe its important to make reference to your experience which will provide at least some creditability.

"Actually, I don't think I am that good as a photographer...technically I am, artistically, I am not. It is why, after working as a professional for several years, I left the field. I have had the chance to meet some the historical greats in photograph, and to tell you the truth... I don't measure up. I console myself with the thought that I am a better engineer than they would ever be, and thankfully that comparison will never happen. What I do know is good work and I know how it technically can be done. I suppose that you only comment about things you are expert yourself..."

Sounds alot of arrogant "Do what I say and not what I do". Is this why you have a problem in posting your own work? You Technically know how to do it but practically you suck? Creditability is the big issue here. Hey this is an internet forum. We have people here with so much knowledge and so call experience, it is like they have been diving since Noah was a boy, but have only done less than 500 dives (to me thats only like less than 2 years of diving experience). Are you one of them?

"But the issue here was what should a new DSLR owner get? I still suggest getting a good macro wide angle zoom, and learn to do that well before buying equipment you may never use"

The issue here was what should a new dSLR owner get. Well your creditability goes to sh*t when you say "I dont have a dSLR but you should get". Thats right you shoot P&S. There is nothing wrong with shooting point and shoot cameras but when your telling how techincally great you are and you dont even use the equipment your starting to sound like a bit of a "know it all". Again you might know it in theory but practically you have no idea.


At this point Puff your sound like an old know it all that is afraid to lead by example. Give yourself at least some creditability from your own practical examples and make others seek to become a better photographer. Maybe posting 100 of your own favourite and best shots would go a long way in my books.

Aussie

[cyclone3565]

I know that we are more than likely discussing digital here, but in regard to turning down the strobes by as much as 2 f-stops, I would agree with Aussie. The best way to learn is to shot 1 stop above and below. I have done most of my learning over the years, but reading and listening, as well as wasting a tremendous amount of film but the rewards are always there. I have used and published numerous pictures. i don't have any on my walls, but have had many printed for friends that wanted a custom background for their fishtank, so that is my recognition and I do it because I love it and I want my son to see the world below as it is now, not when he finally decides he would like to learn to dive.

[Puffer Fish]

Wow, hey, don't hold back, say how you really feel.

Clearly, you were insulted by my comment about your over use of flash. Sorry about that. All you had to do was ask why and I would have been happy to explain. I might suggest that you don't brag about your knowledge and skill and then show images like that, with no understand of the issue.

You have very good composition (for the most part), good framing, great subjects to take pictures of. All you lack is a better understanding of lighting and some depth of field control... which is not bad for the amount of experience you have.

You may look at the above and conclude I am "hypocritical and arrogant", but if I said they were lovely, perfect, works of art, would I then be something different?

Would you demand I prove what I was talking about if I agreed with you? I am guessing not.

I never said I had never used an slr... nor did I say I have only used one strobe (actually I said the opposite). I lost one of my strobes last year, by the way...

I am sorry that I did not realize you were a newbie...but if you were not so self absorbed, you would already have known what I was talking about.

Hard to cover all the insults you threw out, but to cover a couple:

My NAUI instructor number is 4186... that is from 1974. Noah was at least 5 years before that. Where did you get the idea that I had 500 dives? (for the record, I had more than that before becoming an instructor).

A good exposure is a good exposure regardless of what camera is used...and that includes your 7070.

Good use of lighing is the same.

Sorry that it upsets you that I am too lazy to always use examples of my photo's...will make sure in the future I don't do that...

Regarding your belief that if someone does not agree with you, that they must not be real, you ever look at yourself? What proof do you have?

Note: Actually, you don't need any...because it should be the information, and not the individual that is important.
I hope you get to dive for years and years.. and enjoy every minute of it.

Today, I take pictures for fun... not to impress. I hope I can pass along some of the experiences I have learned over the years...and if I am lucky, maybe one or two will try, learn a bit and then help others. Obviously, you are not one of them. I wish when I was taking pictures far more seriously, there had been digital technology, so that the thousands of images I have on film, could be instantly transmitted around the world...but that is not the case.

Originally Posted by Aussie

Puff,

The real issue was pertaining to your hypocritical and arrogant manner which you often portray yourself in this section. This might be just your personality and it all might be mistaken as an individuals written word does not show their true self (might be nice bloke when talking to in person, but they sounds like a right pr*ck when they type).

This was shown in the recent Posting by Smoothdome in regards to help with deciding on dSLR gear etc etc.

"Looking at your images, you have some excellent ones, you tend to over use strobes (really common dual strobe, DSLR issue). For the most part, you need less flash, not more. I would be turning down your strobes by around 2 f stops worth of light."

I expected more from a so called professional and was very surprised to see this comment knowing the fact that you have told me that you, yourself do not shoot with a dSLR and are looking at buying a second strobe to make a dual. I expected a reference also to which shots had in your opinion strobe over usage. Also bare in mind that there is also a lot of shot from a Olympus c7070 amoung them too.

"Actually, there are several times more of my pictures posted in ST's forums than you have in the picture section. But that is neither important nor valid. Whether I have taken 10,000 images, or none is also not the point."

I have seen only some of your pictures on your educational threads. But to reference them all together and at a later date the gallery is the only option. The whole point is if you are going to lecture us in photo technique providing excellent examples of your own work is required.

At least i have placed my 109 over strobed shots in the Gallery. Which until the other day you only had one.

Stating "weather I have taken 10,000 images, or none is also not the point" does not make any sense. Are you providing experience from your own work or just from reading others. I would believe its important to make reference to your experience which will provide at least some creditability.

"Actually, I don't think I am that good as a photographer...technically I am, artistically, I am not. It is why, after working as a professional for several years, I left the field. I have had the chance to meet some the historical greats in photograph, and to tell you the truth... I don't measure up. I console myself with the thought that I am a better engineer than they would ever be, and thankfully that comparison will never happen. What I do know is good work and I know how it technically can be done. I suppose that you only comment about things you are expert yourself..."

Sounds alot of arrogant "Do what I say and not what I do". Is this why you have a problem in posting your own work? You Technically know how to do it but practically you suck? Creditability is the big issue here. Hey this is an internet forum. We have people here with so much knowledge and so call experience, it is like they have been diving since Noah was a boy, but have only done less than 500 dives (to me thats only like less than 2 years of diving experience). Are you one of them?

"But the issue here was what should a new DSLR owner get? I still suggest getting a good macro wide angle zoom, and learn to do that well before buying equipment you may never use"

The issue here was what should a new dSLR owner get. Well your creditability goes to sh*t when you say "I dont have a dSLR but you should get". Thats right you shoot P&S. There is nothing wrong with shooting point and shoot cameras but when your telling how techincally great you are and you dont even use the equipment your starting to sound like a bit of a "know it all". Again you might know it in theory but practically you have no idea.


At this point Puff your sound like an old know it all that is afraid to lead by example. Give yourself at least some creditability from your own practical examples and make others seek to become a better photographer. Maybe posting 100 of your own favourite and best shots would go a long way in my books.

Aussie

[jwdizney]

easy boys! maybe it's time to agree to disagree? don't want to get like another board...do we?. besides, for newbies like me, you both have a lot to offer!

[Puffer Fish]

Originally Posted by cyclone3565

I know that we are more than likely discussing digital here, but in regard to turning down the strobes by as much as 2 f-stops, I would agree with Aussie. The best way to learn is to shot 1 stop above and below. I have done most of my learning over the years, but reading and listening, as well as wasting a tremendous amount of film but the rewards are always there. I have used and published numerous pictures. i don't have any on my walls, but have had many printed for friends that wanted a custom background for their fishtank, so that is my recognition and I do it because I love it and I want my son to see the world below as it is now, not when he finally decides he would like to learn to dive.

Sounds like you have fun doing it, which is the important part.

You don't have to be a great photographer to shoot under water pictures... I am not even sure if it helps much on most images... but lighting is one where it does. I am not talking about exposure adjustments, I am talking about balance between day light and flash, and how and where the light goes. There is a place for the black background... but not in every photo...

I was refering to using the strobes at too high of an output... making the background dark to almost black. Notice in picture of the blue tang, that you can see the sea fan.. well that is a scanned image, with greatly reduced dynamic range. Would the picture be the same, with just the fish and black behind it?

A professional land photographer would understand the issue easily, as much of commercial photography involves complex lighting. I know people that take nice images and never get the concept, I know people that spent years taking UW pictures and one day just "got it" and some understand right away.

If you have used film, and are not completely of the digital age, then get a copy of Ansel Adam's "the print" He spends a gread deal of that book going over how that concept effects the final image. And in the old days, in a darkroom, you could make the print look any way you wanted.

[Puffer Fish]

Originally Posted by jwdizney

easy boys! maybe it's time to agree to disagree? don't want to get like another board...do we?. besides, for newbies like me, you both have a lot to offer!

You are correct on that... I never meant my comment about his use of flash as an insult, I thought it was obvious. My mistake.

I flooded my last slr (not digital), and promised myself I would never again take a $3,000 camera under water. I suppose I deserve some insults for not jumping back on the horse and getting a DSLR...if I have counted right, that was the third camera, along with 5 strobes.

[Aussie]

"I might suggest that you don't brag about your knowledge and skill and then show images like that, with no understand of the issue."

The issue was about Smoothdome asking about setup ideas for his dSLR. He introduced some of this own ideas i.e Ikelite housing, 60mm Macro, wide angle lens and large dome port. The relivance is that I do have a dSLR (nikon not canon) 60mm Macro, 10-17mm wide angle lens and a ikelite 8 inch dome port. I can actual show images (without bragging) to show the actual results for a very similar setup which Smoothdome asked for advice on. Therefore wouldn't one say I would have some understand and knowledge of the issue???????

"I never said I had never used an slr"

Are you currently using or have used a Digital SLR?

"I am sorry that I did not realize you were a newbie...but if you were not so self absorbed, you would already have known what I was talking about."

Guess to someone that has been shooting film before I was born I would be classed as a Newbie. Yes I was born in 1974.

"Where did you get the idea that I had 500 dives?"

That was a generalisation and not directed at you.

"Sorry that it upsets you that I am too lazy to always use examples of my photo's...will make sure in the future I don't do that"

I am sorry to that your laziness has greatly reduced your creditability in my opinion. The whole point really of our disagreement is that you arrogantly state that your a technically good professional photographer with decades of experience. But without the proof of your own work, this has tarnished your creditability in my eyes. Are you just hinding behind your knowledge and afraid to show your own ability to use that knowledge in a practical way.

Aussie

[Aussie]

Puff,

How about you post 100 of your own Favourite and best photo's on your Gallery. This will restore my opinion of you and provide you with so much more creditabilty with me than I have at the moment.

Aussie

[Foo2]

Try to be nice boys....this is not a competition nor do either one of you have to prove your manliness through your amazing photo skills. Please try to keep it friendly and the insults to a minimum. Thanks!