Top Dawg Video Housing from ST

[Krakenn]

Hi boardies

I am really interested in getting into underwater video and was interested in this new package that ST were advertising under the Top Dawg brand.

Has anyone had any expereince with this system, I was looking at purchasing the full housing and lighting, Pelican Box package.

Also as I havent brought the camera yet is there anything that especially marries up with this housing from your expereince?

I would appreciate your feedback on this.

Kraks

[quasimoto]

I have seen it and it is a good quality rig.

I think my question to you would be, do you really want to spend that much money on something that you might not like? Ebay has some great deals go through all the time.
Also I don't know what camera you are going to put in it but you also need to think about editing programs as well as will your computer handle it and be able to store it. Going HD is a total new ball game. That doesn't even include the time that you are going to spend editing. Don't kid yourself that you won't want to edit.

It's not going to be a cheap project.

[diversteve]

It's an electronic housing. So you'd be limited to Sony camcorders that have a LANC port since that's how the TopDawg controls the camera. You just literally plug it in. Sony calls it a remote jack on it's newer models.

I respectfully disagree with quasimoto and recommend that you look at buying an HDV camcorder. You won't need the computing power to edit HDV immediately since Sony camcorders can downconvert your HDV footage to SD during capture. The quality of the footage captured is like 6 times better.

There are several NLE's (non-linear editors) available under $200 that will edit HDV footage. Sony's Vegas Movie Studio Platinum sells for $129, Adobe's Premiere Elements 5 - under $100 and Pinnacle's Studio 11(12?). A decent Pentium Core Duo with a couple gig's of memory and fast hard drives will work fine. On the Mac side, a G5 running Final Cut Pro works well.

If you do have a computer with enough horsepower, editing in HDV is much better, even if you downconvert to standard definition when burning a DVD or putting your footage out on the web. I showed some raw footage captured in SD to my diveclub and my photographer buddy commented on how much better it looked than other SD footage he'd seen.

And you're futureproofing your footage since it's all stored on HDV masters. Here in the U.S. everybody is switching to HDTV since the gov't is mandating that SD broadcast programming is off the air by 2009.

There's also a cheap DIVX codec that allows you to create near HD content for streaming on Stage6. Go look at www.stage6.divx.com for some examples.

The HDV (tape) models that will work in the TopDawg are the HC3 (discontinued but on eBay) or the HDR-HC7. The HDR-HC7's viewfinder is difficult to see in the back port of the TopDawg so you may want to buy the external monitor back.

Most of the new Sony HDD camcorders don't have a LANC port either.

The HD HDD models that do are the HDR-SR8, HDR-SR7, HDR-SR5 and HDR-SR5C. However the HDR-SR5 series doesn't have a rear viewfinder and you won't be able to open/see the LCD screen in the TopDawg. The HDD camcorders all capture in AVCHD format also so you might want to read up on and understand the limitations of that format. Mostly the quality is slightly worse and you'll need to make sure the NLE you buy can support capturing footage in that format. Some like Adobe's Premiere CS don't.

If you buy an SD camcorder NONE of the HDD models have a viewfinder so you'd have to buy the external monitor. Same problem with their new HD media camcorder the HDR-CX7.

In SD Tape models the only camcorder with both a LANC jack and a viewfinder is the DCR-HC96, their top of the line. But for $650 (list) you could almost buy an HDV camcorder.

I personally don't recommend you consider a DVD camcorder since they're less functional both u/w and for later editing since you have to finalize the DVD at the end of shooting. And in HD mode, they get about 20mins. per disc.

There are any number of used Sony camcorders you can buy on eBay that will work in the TopDawg. Just make sure they have a LANC port, a lot of the entry level camcorders made in the last 4-5 years didn't

If you haven't seen it, TopDawg's website is http://www.topdawgvideo.com/

The TopDawg is the same housing as the Light & Motion Stingray III Sport model. It's a cost-reduced version of the regular Stingray III, the primary differences being a flat instead of zoom-thru port and a lesser depth rating (I think) Same housing, same controls etc.

One limitation of the flat port design is that you'd need to install the red color-correcting filter on the camera pre-dive if shooting without lights. Which means that any footage shot in bright conditions above 15' will be too yellow to fix in post-editing.

any other questions?

[Krakenn]

Thanks Steve, the cameras I was looking at were the HC96 but i didnt want to go there because im thinking this is now old technology.

The other Vid Cam was the HDR-HC5 Ultra, I have downloaded the Spec for this and it does indicate that it has a LANC Terminal contrary to your earlier advice. Unknown reason?

Steve what camera would you put in the housing?

Noting I have the resources to develop this into a long term HOBBY but are unsure as to what way to go as the variables presented as just too much to information to come in at entry level without a number of years of additional research.

I am actually buying a housing and wanting a good camera to put in it rather than the other way around.

Spec on HDR-HC5

Inputs and Outputs
LANC Terminal: Yes (Stereo Mini)
Analog Audio/Video Input(s): N/A
Analog Audio/Video Output(s): Yes (Multi A/V)
Digital Audio/Video Input(s): Yes (via i.LINK®)
Digital Audio/Video Output(s): Yes (via i.LINK®)
USB Port(s): Yes (1.1 compliant)
i.LINK® Interface: Yes
Component Video (Y/Pb/Pr) Output(s): Yes
Headphone Jack: N/A
Microphone Input: N/A
Remote Jack: N/A
S-Video Input(s): N/A
S-Video Output(s): Yes (via optional accessory)
HDMI™ Connection Output(s): Yes

Kraks

[diving4fun]

Krakenn-

I agree with diversteve, that HD is the best way to go if your budget allows.

I know I spent way more than a sane person should on my video rig, but it is a hobby that I really enjoy, so I get myself the tools to do it right (if you want to play, you have to pay, I've heard). I have the Sony A1U in an Amphibico housing, because I wanted the ability to manually white balance during the dive, to have flip filters, and to have a small enough unit that I could carry it in my carryon luggage.

I've had my rig about 2 years, so there are other cameras that would meet my requirements today, and probably have better low light capability, but I really like my setup and low light has not been a problem (I like clear blue water diving).

Basically, know up front this is an expensive, but great hobby, and lots of information is available. I find wetpixel.com to be a great website with some outstanding professional level underwater video folks, that offer excellent advice.

Vic

[CompuDude]

Interesting housing. I'll have to give that some consideration... I've been toying with bringing my video camera down, but haven't wanted to spend thousands on a housing for relatively older camera. (TRV-950) If eBay doesn't bring me what I need, that housing has some potential...

I'll note that unless you get the monitor back, you'll be limited to using the viewfinder, which is pretty small and tough underwater, IMO, since this housing won't let you keep the LCD open.

[ScubaToys Larry]

We can get any of the Gates, Light and motion etc housings as well. The Top Dawg actually is a light and motion made generic to fit multiple cameras.

Here's the pro and con.

The con is you cannot put on a dome lens. If you wanted real wide angle shots with no side distortion - some videophiles will say you have to use a dome. Domes are expensive, seem to always get scratched, and you have to have a specific camera in a specific housing to work.

The Pro... they are very well made housings that work well. We had 2 of them as rentals for 4 years with never a leak - except one time when the customer admitted that he pinched a cable in the seal that he discovered when he got out.

Then the problem is with cameras - if you get a specific made housing, and your camera breaks... since the manufacturers are always coming out with new different models, it is difficult if not impossible to find another camera to go in your $2000+ housing!! Arrrgg!

Here, you find another camera with a lanc and drop it in. Bunches to choose from instead of just one model.

Actually, there are some besides the sony that work as well, a few cannons work as well. Here is a compatibility chart: http://www.topdawgvideo.com/compatibility.htm

[diversteve]

Originally Posted by Krakenn

The other Vid Cam was the HDR-HC5 Ultra, I have downloaded the Spec for this and it does indicate that it has a LANC Terminal contrary to your earlier advice. Unknown reason?

Mistake on my part...I would've sworn it didn't have one when I picked it up at the store last week. I edited my previous post.

Steve what camera would you put in the housing?

I really can't say definitively. I'd probably go with the HC5. But I'm firmly in the shoot tape camp.

Or the HC7 for the better chip. Although there are some negative comments concerning it's low-light performance at camcorderinfo.com. For me not a big issue as I shoot only in bright tropical water. And don't carry lights since I fly everywhere to dive.

Although If I was buying an new Sony HDV camcorder today, I'd consider the SR7/8 also. I'd like to see some non-compressed AVCHD footage first though. All the posts I've read panning it are from tape shooters. The advantage for me would be to be able to shoot multiple dives w/o having to change tapes/batteries. My HC1 with the extended battery is good for 220mins. so my limit is the hourlong tapes I use. Of course when I fill up a tape, I just change it, with an HDD camcorder on a liveaboard or long trip you'd likely need some external storage.

It's probably nice for editing also, instead of worrying about dropped frames during capture, it shows up as a hard drive on your system.

A couple of other points also that I thought of today. drbill over on ScubaBoard shoots an HC7 in an old TopDawg housing. One of his comments was that the viewfinder on the HC7 (HC5 is the same) is difficult to see. And being fixed there's no adjustment. He either did or will be squeezing a small external monitor into his TopDawg.

It appears that with the SR7 and SR8, Sony went back to the old style viewfinder found on my HC1, it flips up slightly and is set farther back in relation to the camera back. Not sure about this since I've never held an SR7 but looking at it on sonystyle.com it appears so.

So it might be a better option if you're not getting the monitor back for the TopDawg. If you are, consider the HDR-SR5C, it has the bigger hard drive, same chip as the HC5 but is limited by having no viewfinder.

Another point to consider is that the TopDawg electronics don't allow for Manual White Balancing with the HD series cameras. drbill has had some contact with TopDawg and originally indicated they might be revising their electronics, but I think I read somewhere that they'd decided not to.

Probably didn't want to compete with the L&M Bluefin.

To get MWB capability your options are the L&M Bluefin ($3K US) or one of the mechanical models that provide a control to touch the LCD screen. Ikelite and Gates do this for about $1K and over $2K respectively

Another hybrid that does this is Ocean Images. They sell an electronic housing with a pushrod control on their HC-specific models. Their housing also allows you to fully open the LCD screen. They or the Ikelite would be the least expensive models up from the TopDawg. But Ikelite will have the compatibility issues Larry mentioned.

hth,

[diversteve]

Larry makes some good points - as always.

One conisderation is that with the flat port you can get good macro results with the right lens on the camcorder. One of my fellow videographers does with his Gates setup. And he invested about $8K so I'm sure he'd have bought a w/a port if he thought he needed it.

Canon doesn't provide LANC on either of their HD models (HV10/20)

[somewhereinla]

I actually would avoid Sony cameras for HD video. They have about the worst quality and is so compressed that really calling it HD is a joke...
Go Panasonic or Canon if you are looking for great HD quality. Don't be fool by the HD claim, most of those cameras have under 15mb/s compression which is very bad. Get cameras that have 25mb/s or better compression. Most HD camera that use tape do. A HD pro camera (for comparison) has a 100mb/s or better compression.